Ironbreaker warband improvements

[zakgrin]

Also I think I will create a Google doc.. as formatting in the OP is pretty tedious.

PLEASE share this post with your IB friends. We need to rally the troops and put all of our heads together.

[Ramlaen]

Avenging the Debt (ability)
Now a core ability in Path of Stone, swapped with Shield Sweep.

Shield Sweep (ability)
Now a mastery ability in Path of Stone, swapped with Avenging the Debt. No longer has a cap on the number of targets struck, but also no longer generates 10 grudge per target hit. All targets hit by Shield Sweep no longer generate morale for 5 seconds.

Oath of Vengeance (tactic)
All buffs given to your Oath Friend will effect all allies within 20 feet of your Oath Friend.

Some interesting thoughts, although the Shield Sweep changes seem like they'd be extremely unlikely. I don't see the devs adding another morale drain like ability to the game. It would probably have to be at where Oathstone is now instead of Avenging the Debt. Where would you propose oath of vengeance go. Probably would need to be moved as that would be strong.

If necessary swap the positions of Oathstone and the proposed Shield Sweep as well as Oath of Vengeance and Shield Mastery.

[hammerhead]

I have IB as the main (rr 80 6/8 alt. Sov) and SM (rr 79 7/8 Sov)
Similar topics are raised regularly but to no purpose. I myself did something similar -
viewtopic.php?f=95&t=34696&p=385505#p385505
- and the topic remained unanswered. I think that this will continue to be so. IB, even with a two-handed, seriously loses his BG mirror, from stupid mechanics "Anger Drives Me", what to compare an old Volvo with a manual gearbox and a Lamborghini with a full automatic.
This is clearly seen in 6x6 when 60%+ BG perma parry makes it simply inaccessible and all fights end with the looooong punt and instakill of guarded. And I am silent about BG out of the box has AOE parry/block debuff.
BG gave all the IB buffs (block/parry armor even aoe anticrit) while leaving IB as it was. He was not bad at first but after all the edits he was not even in the second league. He's on the bench.
And from pve perspective IB has the lowest aoe dmg, out of combination - Challenge -> Oathstone. Up to the point that after the first pack, there is nothing to keep a second pack of mobs on yourself because there is no spam aoe (say hello - None Shall Pass/Monstrous Rending).

[videogamer]

It's great to be as good as Blackguard and all but at the end of the day you're both equally still undesirable in warbands compared with other tanks. Maybe instead of derailing the thread people should focus on the actual topic of the thread ie: how to improve these classes in warband play.

[Fey]

IB is a total beefcake. You'll never outshine Kotbs in WB play because class mechanic. Still the buffs IB has access to are insane. Crit buff, initiative buff, spell absorb. You keep the main assist alive.

You want more WB utility? You have 2 aoe snares dude, 10 second CD conditional KD; the only one as far as I can tell. Armor debuff, good KB; almost spammable outgoing heal debuff, AA speed buff, etc. This thread is l2p, IB is Super Saiyan, learn to love it.

[Nefarian78]

At least half of these suggestions are purely l2p issues and have nothing to do improving Ironbreakers in a warband while others are just ridicolous.

Oathbound and Ancestor's Fury 20s? If you have trouble sustaining 100% uptime with those two along Stubborn as Stone, that's on you. 10s duration is perfectly balanced. This might sound weird, but IBs actually are not and are not supposed to be an aoe buff class. The buffs are incredibly potent and that's why they're single target. 2+ targets with 10% crit, 25% parry, 50+ ini, 75+ str at 100% uptime isn't balanced nor fun to play as a pure buffbot.

Percentage Armor Debuff? Who even suggests these abominations? Armor debuff, % Armor debuff, Tactic armor debuff, Morale armor debuff. Can't see anything wrong that could happen from making even tanks hit 0 armor. Kappa

Stacking buffs with auras and potions? Why should IB buffs be any different than those from BOs, BGs, SMs and literally everyone else? And that rationale... what is "tactical" in having the buffs you use on rotation stack with Auras and potions? I can answer that. Nothing.

While there certainly are some things that need to be looked at, but the suggestions in this thread clearly show great lack of understanding on how this game works and of how class balance works. Nothing more than "Buff my class" with weak arguments and flawed or no rationale.

You want to make IBs more attractive to warband play? Increasing the attacks reflected by oathstone to 8 would be a good start.

Make Avenging the Debt apply a debuff on the target that lasts X seconds and add an AP component to it.

Oath of Vengeance also reducing the target's toughness by the same amount.

Make shield sweep worth using. I don't have any suggestions regarding that.

These 4 changes would go a long way in actually making IBs better for WB, but don't expect to see more than 1 in an optimized warband because that is not going to happen.
BGs are in the same spot, they are there only for Wave of Scorn and Crimson Death and that's fine. IBs are taken to buff the main slayer that is in group with a SM with Whispering Winds and Axe Slam which is also perfectly fine.

[hammerhead]

At least half of these suggestions are purely l2p issues and have nothing to do improving Ironbreakers in a warband while others are just ridicolous.

Oathbound and Ancestor's Fury 20s? If you have trouble sustaining 100% uptime with those two along Stubborn as Stone, that's on you. 10s duration is perfectly balanced.

Well, tell me one more class that should spend 6 GCD in a 20 second cycle just to maintain 100% uptime? And how much class resource will you have left if you just run the buff alone a single character?
Didn't you defend the 24-man AoE cap for a Dire Shielding? And then he nerfed. Why then didn’t you call for aura mechanics common to all, and now are you calling everyone to l2p? double standard?

[Nefarian78]

Well, tell me one more class that should spend 6 GCD in a 20 second cycle just to maintain 100% uptime?

Good thing it's not 6 GCDs but 3. Oathbound, Stubborn as Stone, Ancestor's Fury. Toughness, Armor and Willpower are only rarely used for obvious reasons. Besides that, it's not like warband IBs are starved for GCDs considering the core rotation is made up of 3 buffs only with the occasional Eartshatter, Kneecapper, Watch n Learn or Runic Shield depending on the build.

And how much class resource will you have left if you just run the buff alone a single character?

If i'm reading this correctly, you're asking me how much grudges (class resource) i have left if i constantly reapply the buffs to get 100% uptime on a single person. The answer is 100. There's no possible way to dip below 100 for more than a couple seconds after refreshing buffs in Warband play. Even with Grumble n Mutter active, you and your oathfriend will have between 10 to 16 sources of damage giving you grudges constantly.

Didn't you defend the 24-man AoE cap for a Dire Shielding? And then he nerfed

No, i never defended the 24 man Dire Shielding cap. I defended the finally fixed Ability + Tactic, which was being targeted by puglords complaining about getting 77 damage, unguarded and without healers while spamming RoF on a 200+ Blob in a fort. Big difference.

To quote myself from the thread you're talking about:

"In a 24v24 there's going to be 4 Chosens at most and Bane Shields are usually called out like challenges (if at all), not used all at once like a morale bomb"

The sentence assumes you need 4 chosens to cover the entire warband in order to use it as a bomb. Why would you need 4 chosens if i assumed Dire Shielding applied to everyone in the warband? I didn't comment at all regarding the 24cap because i knew it was going be changed and wasn't working as intended.

Why then didn’t you call for aura mechanics common to all, and now are you calling everyone to l2p? double standard?

I honestly don't understand what you're trying to say with that sentence. Something about auras. And yes, i am calling these l2p issues because it's exactly from what most of these suggestions stem from.

[Charon]

I was wondering when this thread will be strike by people that argue that ib is fine and rest of the rvr world are fill only by bunch of idiots.

I don’t expect that ideas posted here will be 100% accurate - its simple brain storming - but your claim that wb ib is super fine bc its single target buffs - i don’t know its stupidity or clear attempt to troll whole idea to balance stone path and wb shield spec.

and my dear destro forum warriors
your legendary small scale Ib with all his buffs is losing any kind of contest with both sm and knight for most effective/ideal/BiS 2-2-2 party setups (sc format).

Obvious choices
can Ib take main spot as snb tank - no knight is better
can Ib take main spot as a 2h assist tank - is it joke
Less obvious choices
can Ib take 2h support role - no 2h knight is better and even def 2h sm especially now with access to sov spec migh be better

Now add here that ib is even less viable in wb.

To compare IB with BG. Yes destro mirror wb functionality is mostly limited to use CD and HD but at least BG have something like that which not only benefits his group but all wb (and his personal utilities support it survivability), when IB is limited to be a mediocre carrier for slayers only (SM with WW is better)

Pls people try to be supportive and don't derail whole idea

[normanis]

basicly ib is only class without changes ( maby minor)
aoe punt can be giving more immunities ( need to use propper) byt u screfice tactic
oathstone should have 5 sec cd
avenging the debt - aoe income healdebuff
stone breaker - should have 1500 armor debuff ( i didnt checked ingane if its 800 or more)
spam rune atched-axe without cd
2 snares for class is einugh
grudge born fury - its only crit for that ability while bg has crimson and crit tactic on hate
wounds debuff similar as bg
m4 similarto bg in loathing tree
offc dwarfs has good racials what dont have noone armor /seen it all before/ stoutnes stone/