[BO] Da Toughest

[Collateral]

This bellow is just so bad that it seems little can be done to make it more worth while more than da biggest. Maybe that tells us something about da biggest, but that's beside the point. If it was a group heal I really don't think it would be too powerfull. BO has a tactic that's a group heal every 3 seconds over 10 seconds, and that's a bad tactic, so I don't see how a bellow would fare much better. Perhaps the third option could be the best. But I would add parry/dodge/disrupt to it, since BO has no means of increasing defenses (not counting HTL) unless you spend astronomical 13 points in a mastery that almost no one uses, and seems to be designed with 'tank' in mind. So if you give p/d/d proc to the bellow, you could make some pretty tanky builds.

[ragafury]

Spoiler:

problem is with da toughest is:

Flexibility: lack of flexiblity, can't stance dance on BO, if you do, you lose AP and GCDs, which are important in a 1v1, and if the wounds design keeps the way it is, it's it only valid application (excluding PvE from it completly)

Values: even if you decide to stance dance to heal yourself the heal is low, 320 HP over 10 sec per default, 10 pts invested for DYG heals 420 (plz no bannerino kapperino) / 10 sec (Counting in that DYG was specced), 460 / 10sec for 14 pts invested (counting in CHM + DYG)

Impact in group play: even if you buff the bellow to more heal valuewise or more heal/less time, it's outvalued by the other two choices.

so my solution, but don't quote me on the numbers:

1)
Leave Da Biggest as it is.
combine da Toughest with da Greenest, remove the armor from da greenest, leave the rest of da greenest as it is (procc on getting hit with 25% chance for resistances, give the proc on heal to the BO only, surely this needs some number adjustment, perhabs wounds buff stays the same, but heal gets lowered for much) Conclusion: Da Toughest becomes a resistant buff for the grp triggered on hit, for the BO itself it becomes a wounds buff with a very minor heal, or just a minor heal. As mentioned, perhabs consider removing the wounds buff completly.

redesign Da Greenest so it becomes more AOE supporting (AP steroid, add XXX corp dmg on hit to it, add minor crit buff or as buff to it. idk. just redesign it so it supports the AOE tree in an offensive way, not a defensive one)


Why these changes?
Atm. the bellows linked to trees don't have a strong theme, excluding Da Biggest from this statement.

You feel tougher in da greenest as compared to toughest cause > avoid + lower dmg in the beginning is better as switching to the mini heal with usually 0 points invested. If you specc for Path of da Toughest atm. you are a) debolstered or b) playing 2hd cookie cutter / snb cookie cutter in which case you want dmg and stat steal so you will run 120 statsteal of Da Biggest. Or you have freshly left the boat and you need Can't Hit Me to survice SC's / T4 RvR, if so, you will not run da Toughest.

2) Possibility 2 for a change
Take all 3 stances of the GCD. Remove or half the AP cost of all 3 stances.
Add a cooldown like Harbringer.
Example:
Da Biggest is active, switch to da Toughest to Heal up -> 20 secs cooldown on da Biggest and da Greenest -> switch back to da Biggest -> 20 seconds Cooldown on da Toughest and da Greenest.
This change would at least issue the very limited flexibility and force a bit of tactical stance dancing in 1v1 situations, which should not be the aim of a balance change in a mmorpg (cause group play).

Buffing da toughest to a group healing ability is in my eyes over the top for small scale. Armor is already overperforming and the kiting is real. squishy targets with a small HP pool (SH, Shaman especially) will benefit from this change really much. means if you are in a defensive position where you have to kite: > switch to da toughest and start to kite backwards and heal yourself and your group passively up while getting hit. Sustain in this kite / on the move fights is already high enough in my opinion.

Otherwise the Mythic Suggestion sounds solid.
Think everybody can agree that middle tree paired up with worst bellow EU is kinda underwhelming.

We are not talking about Da Greenest! or Da Biggest!

[Bozzax]

This bellow is just so bad that it seems little can be done to make it more worth while more than da biggest. Maybe that tells us something about da biggest, but that's beside the point. If it was a group heal I really don't think it would be too powerfull. BO has a tactic that's a group heal every 3 seconds over 10 seconds, and that's a bad tactic, so I don't see how a bellow would fare much better. Perhaps the third option could be the best. But I would add parry/dodge/disrupt to it, since BO has no means of increasing defenses (not counting HTL) unless you spend astronomical 13 points in a mastery that almost no one uses, and seems to be designed with 'tank' in mind. So if you give p/d/d proc to the bellow, you could make some pretty tanky builds.

Another "Da Biggst" group buff yields no real value unless it is better and I doubt that will ever happen. "Greenst" is cool and has solid value.

Imo option 3 makes most sense.

[Collateral]

How would giving a 20 second cd to bellows make it more tactical for switching? Even if you half the ap cost it makes it really bad imo. That gives you no tactical choices, you basically have one chance to switch, and then for the next 20 seconds you're stuck with what you got. I don't think BOs are necessarily meant to be stance dancing. You focus your entire build around one bellow, so other two are just back ups in certain situations. And since da toughest is basically just a heal, there is nothing to build around. Giving it defensive capabilities that apply only to the BO seems like it would fulfill a role as a tanky bellow, i.e. making you tougher. But, this game is really focused on group play, so I still think that the bellow will rarely be used, unless you indeed make it more easy to stance dance.

[Bozzax]

BOs need it in grp play when FF just like chosen has M2 superheal, kniggits has vigil and M1, sm has wods and ib/bg has their op stuff.

Bellows imo should remain clunky 55ap. So no CDs, no fast switching and little overlap.

[ragafury]

Spoiler:

as mentioned, not even my favourite solution. just a solution I at least consider working.DPS gain while not losing AP + DPS in a 1v1 / 1v2 would be less clunkiness, which is highly apreciated, but ofc grp play as I mentioned.

but toughest bellow is in the urgh tier of bellows. both other bellows offer more value with 0 pts invested in it.
as mentioned rather see greenest reworked for AOE / support focus (yes atm it's supportive too, but not supporting the AOE part of the tree) in the direction of something like grp AS, Crit chance, AP generator, corp dmg procc with ICD for the grp or whatever, and toughest greenest combined. give up the wounds and the armor for resistance and selfheal. This would btw have at least some synergy with 2hd specc.

but having a superior bellow,
a first aid bellow cause no resistance buff dispenser around / cleanse / punt yadadadada
and a close to useless / delay death / Solo PvE bellow
is a strange design, besides that, the bellows should support the trees, yes. Not the case.
they aren't cause there is exactly this tier system in place per default if you got premade groups were yourself ofc can balance around. so stuff is at least class intern not in line.

My solutions are mentioned above, since AB EX is an possibility I would never cross out something unless tried.
Leavin an ability straight close to dead is ofc worse.

This is the last time i tell you: we are NOT talking about the other bellows - Penril

[Collateral]

Yes I agree that bellows don't quite support the trees, or at least two of them. But this is not a balance thread about making bellows more adapted to trees, but about da toughest, so please lets stay on topic. You can always make a new proposal that's about bellows in general. I really wish more people participated in this thread and not just 4-5, as it's quite impprtant for the class, but I guess summer sadness.

[Dabbart]

Spoiler:

So, it's been stated a few times now that da toughest is the weakest bellow. I feel I addressed this in my first post, but I am curious how that is believed so. Outside of very specific(and weak) group comp, the armor/resist bellow is literally worthless. It doesn't stack with pots, so you need to invest up to Waaagh to even get over the 660 armor pots(if I remember correctly), and the resist doesn't stack with sham/chosen and it requires the BO to be hit before it provides any resistance...

Obviously stat steal is king. Even at its lowest level. But I have always believed that every class was built with abilities and tactics that are solely designed for use in PvE. This bellow is one of them imo.

I don't want to repeat the same thing to everyone. In fact I won't - Penril

[Collateral]

People look at them from pvp perspective, and whether they benefit just one player or many. If you happen to not have chosen or shaman you can spec into boss tree to provide decent resists and armour (at 10-11 points you get to 300 resist and over 600 armour iirc). And during heavy fights it's pretty much 100% uptime. This all comes to footpatrols ideas about racial groups if it's not apparent, but I won't go into that. Potions ruin a lot of abilities and specs as well, which is also another topic.

[Nefarian78]

I feel like we're going nowhere. We're theorycrafting on what problems might happen if X solution goes live, but we aren't trying to get new solutions out.

I personally think that my third solution is the best one, but many think it would be too strong. What about making it work with 2h only? I think 2h tanks need to be incentivized and that could be a first step for BOs at least. (Could have drawbacks in pve, i've never pve'd in WAR so i don't really know if it would be a massive hit)

What are YOUR solutions?

"I think it is too strong" is not a valid counter, and the next one saying that gets a warning UNLESS he explains what makes it too strong in a group situation, From what I have seen, no one has debunked Op arguments yet - Penril