[Rejected] Flames of Fate, Ensnare (break mechanics)

[peterthepan3]

also as a clousure rule, you are not mean to kill as finale results, final results it's own the obective, if the players run away and do not def the objective then you have alredy won.

Subject to opinion: in competitive fights, at least, people would prioritise killing the enemy over taking a flag as the game is a PvP game first and foremost.

There are a variety of different ways to catch a kiter: Zealot stagger, Sorc/Magus M3 stagger, Marauder's M1, Magus stagger, etc. I don't see how this is relevant to whether or not the game revolves around 6v6.

I also prefer kill which is fun but the aim is not reckless kill in aRVR game which is different than pvp game in the strict sense.
If there are a variety of different way all this bias for a morales that is cleary over the top of serve nerve and CC which his main direct counter play are stay away ( which is a counter play to anything of course so it can be used as motivation till a certain extent) or keep all your morales to use m2 and only that and just that every 1 min.

then no sy :/

6vs6 was refering the fact that it's even possible that this format do not support perfectly every aspect of the game, i can take even this a possibility just to tel it, not want start a crusade or derail the thread, i am more convinced of flaws in game rather than that.

I feel that we need to distinguish the angle from which we are arguing that FoF is OP: 6v6? 12V12? Open RVR?
If this has already been explained, apologies for missing it.

[noisestorm]

People also seem to forget that the sole purpose of a Ranged group is to - in fact - keep distance. The whole idea of making a ranged group is to simply not get into melee range. You can also always run a range/hybrid group yourself and do the same to counter other ranged groups if you like to, but you are supposed to have a hard time dealing with ranged groups with only melees. Also from some posts i basically gather that a you can literally forfeit in the first place with a Choppa+WE (or double Choppa) setup if you encounter a ranged group on the other side, simply "because you cannot catch the kiters and there is no counterplay to endless kiting besides m1 root", which is simply not true. Be it charge, stealth, some form of ranged CC or simply using Resolute Defense yourself as melee will give plenty of opportunites to get into range. The m1 root as it currently exists though is in many situations a guarnteed kill. Yes sure you can come with the arguments of "But your tank can stagger and kick enemies chasing you" , but you now please tell me what exactly prevents the tank of the Melee group to not just do the same to their tank? Also i will repeat it again that a lot of people reduce Focused Minds single use to being the root-breaker for said M1. But dont you ignore the fact, that you maybe could eat a 7 second range Silence for example? Or that someone gets hardcore focused and you maybe need to burn m2 to (rezz+)fastheal in order to keep him up. Or that you maybe need to burst damage someone down and need the extra damage BEFORE you get rooted? Sure you have the possiblity of the 10 second profit after using it as a root break, but you cannot expect to a) have the freetime to do so, since you may be already pressured if the m1 got dropped on you in the first place and b) there may be nothing to do with the buff for the moment - in other words noone gets significant damage at the time given (as healer) , or the enemies run a tank m4 for example and youre better off saving your APs..

Like Peter already said, there are many ways to catch kiters/rangers without needing a ridiculous m1 root. Potentially you could add Shaman/AM snarepit to his list and something people also seem to forget - Terrain. Terrain may be very situational, but in the majority of situations you have some sort of rocks,trees,or buildings to negate a huge amount of ranged pressure.

I know this is quite a bit offtopic, but i feel some people discussing stuff always blatantly ignore some things and i just wanted to point that out.

[Bozzax]

IMO

Roots typically are under performing and morale roots are over performing.

At this point I’d like to see a reasonable break on damage proposal for both morale roots* and roots. Not touching the range or duration of FoF/Ensnare (damage is almost irrelevant imo but tuning it down to 600 would not be out of line).

If it makes rdps unkillable then changes should be made to rdps kiting as well directly or root changes reverted back until changes for the latter are agreed on. Especially for the top kiter classes.

There is counter play but it also can be countered it self. Examples are a morale boosting AM makes NE available in no time or heavy stacking of morale regen gear on your WL/Mara gives that you a free 10s kill window without other defences then guard, cc and heals.

* All of them Fof, Ensnare, Rock Clutch, No Escape, Paralyzing Nightmares.

[Morf]

if Bretin would have slotted morale jewelery AND focused mind he would had a counterplay,

Itemization is never a valid argument for balance issues, if the mara and sw both had morale jewellery then the same would happen, focus mind m2 fof/ensnare m1.

[Gobtar]

if Bretin would have slotted morale jewelery AND focused mind he would had a counterplay,

Itemization is never a valid argument for balance issues, if the mara and sw both had morale jewellery then the same would happen, focus mind m2 fof/ensnare m1.

If one of the better players in the game needs to chose one specific ability and needs to itemize, and cannot compensate in any way with his skill set or being good, then what it's not a L2P issue. Hard counters are not good balance.

[Aranael]

Spoiler:

People also seem to forget that the sole purpose of a Ranged group is to - in fact - keep distance. The whole idea of making a ranged group is to simply not get into melee range.

So in your opinion a melee group shouldn't have the possibility to catch a rdps group? Please tell me how this can be called "balance" .

You can also always run a range/hybrid group yourself and do the same to counter other ranged groups if you like to, but you are supposed to have a hard time dealing with ranged groups with only melees.

This is probably your definition of "balance", your logic leads to a huge imbalance in a game which already favors rdps more than mdps in most daily pvp situations.

..which is simply not true. Be it charge, stealth, some form of ranged CC or simply using Resolute Defense yourself as melee will give plenty of opportunites to get into range.

Charge on tanks? That's new for me or do you ask the melee to overextend into 3 rdps while the tanks are out of guard range? Also a decent rdps will knock you down during charge.
ranged CC in a melee group? oh yeah FoF and Ensnare - the abilities you want to get nerfed.
stealth? see Charge
Resolute Defense? another rdps biased suggestion as this would force the mdps to relenquish offensive potential. Basically what you ask for is that 4 people (the melee train) are going to spend 30 of their renown points to catch 1 rdps? sounds balanced.

The m1 root as it currently exists though is in many situations a guarnteed kill.

no it is not:
- FM / Rootbreaker
- Immunities
- Defensive Morales
- Tank CC
- Potions

but you now please tell me what exactly prevents the tank of the Melee group to not just do the same to their tank?

If the DPS is able to outplay the other groups DPS by using his Anti-CC abilities, the tank can be punted to China while the mdps group is still on the chase.

Also i will repeat it again that a lot of people reduce Focused Minds single use to being the root-breaker for said M1. But dont you ignore the fact, that you maybe could eat a 7 second range Silence for example?

there is no 7s silence in the game afaik and i doubt that a mdps group will run a silence specced AM, even though they would, the mdps needs a couple of seconds to close the gap so the rpds can pop FM, Selfpunt or Root and use flee to get on range again.

Or that someone gets hardcore focused and you maybe need to burn m2 to (rezz+)fastheal in order to keep him up.

Not a single marauder will use FoF on a healer if there are all rdps alive within a group. Healer are most likely pretty safe and do usually have way more defensive potential than dps classes.

Or that you maybe need to burst damage someone down and need the extra damage BEFORE you get rooted?

If you can burn someone before you are rooted, that means you managed to kill one out of 2 mdps within a mdps group. That's an insane damage loss and i highly doubt that you will get engaged but engage yourself right on to a healer after the dps is dead and hopefully manage to win the fight.

Like Peter already said, there are many ways to catch kiters/rangers without needing a ridiculous m1 root.

The morale isn't more ridiculous than the suggestion to combine a mdps with a magus for example or a shaman/AM as they do simply not fit into a mdps setup. If you want them to synergyze there is more than one balance thread needed. During the current stage of the game the morales are an essential tool to catch rdps while it still has more than just one counterplay.

spoiler by Penril - No Omnislashing.

[dur3al]

Was about to answer, but thanks Aranael to have it done so thoroughly.

@noisestorm
I'd like to add, please watch Korze's stream of the 6v6 event, forward it to 3:13:00 to watch the beginning of the fights on mdps/rdps comp vs another one, and going forward watch them as they fight LoB against 2 melees and count how many times Sorc was able to survive, while that according to you "as soon as you get in melee range is over", I mean seriously?

[noisestorm]

Was about to answer, but thanks Aranael to have it done so thoroughly.

@noisestorm
I'd like to add, please watch Korze's stream of the 6v6 event, forward it to 3:13:00 to watch the beginning of the fights on mdps/rdps comp vs another one, and going forward watch them as they fight LoB against 2 melees and count how many times Sorc was able to survive, while that according to you "as soon as you get in melee range is over", I mean seriously?

Which is a horrible example just so you know.In the first M1 root scenario the white lions pet was already killed (greatly reducing all of its damage) and there was also a tank m3 used for the enemies as well. The next time he got rooted he insta popped his M2 as well as a tank M4. The third time he eats Ensnare he also uses M2 again, simply to counter it. Not sure what you were trying to achieve with telling me to watch this, but it basically proves exactly what was already said: You need to use superior morales in order to counter the M1, which is exactly what makes this M1 too strong

[Tesq]

I feel that we need to distinguish the angle from which we are arguing that FoF is OP: 6v6? 12V12? Open RVR?
If this has already been explained, apologies for missing it.

think it was not intended to be balanced a certain x vs x rather than compared to other morales due to aza first post

[peterthepan3]

I feel that we need to distinguish the angle from which we are arguing that FoF is OP: 6v6? 12V12? Open RVR?
If this has already been explained, apologies for missing it.

think it was not intended to be balanced a certain x vs x rather than compared to other morales due to aza first post

Ah okay, having read noisestorm's posts that would make sense.