4 problems killing this server

[normanis]

What disadvantages?

special addons who mark counter side . eather cc tham.
somthing if we very rude compare - gcdsaver. vs who dont have it. (u can live without it byt its make cc enemy better for your side so u dont waste cc (punts/knock/silence).

[Bozzax]

So you don’t want to do 24v24 bc someone might use more advantageous add ons?

[agemennon675]

I am by no means an expert in faction balance but I do like my statistics. Here's my take on point 1 of the OP; Destro > Order.

As other commenters already pointed out, examining balance in content smaller than wb v wb is not the way to go about it, since that is not the main balancing focus. So, looking at massive rvr balance between factions I'm surprised to see so many people here point to W/L ratio for LOTD or other kill data to prove their point. Here's why that is a really bad idea:
1. The results are not statistically signifant due to only having 10 or so days of data since the last balance patch.
2. The results are not statistically significant due to disparities due to population, organization and player skill between warbands from both sides.
3. The results are imbalanced due to class-related player agency.

The first 2 points can potentially be ignored when enough time has passed and by the influence of Xrealming guilds over time. We are very close to the last balance patch, however, and therefore they should not be ignored.

Let me elaborate on the third point though; class-related player agency.
By that I refer to the individual choice of us, players, when selecting which class we will play during our sessions. Ideally, I think most of us would agree that this should be a non-issue. But it is. And here is why:

Currently when speaking about a warband in META terms (most effective tactic available), both realms tend to gravitate towards classes that bring something unique and powerful in the mix. There are classes that bring that benefit for the whole WB (e.g. MSH's Pierce Defences or Blackguard's Crimson Death and Hastened Doom) and others that bring that for their party only (e.g. BW/Sorc & DOK/WP dmg procs, Chosen/Kotbs auras). The first category tends to take 1 spot in the META warband, while the others take 4 wb spots (1 in each party). This leaves little to no spots for the ''bad" classes (e.g. Magus, rSH, SW, WE, WH).
So, when a player decides to log in as one of those classes with the aim of playing in an organized warband, they are choosing to lower the effectiveness of that warband and, by extension, their faction. As I mentioned before, this should not be happening and all classes should ideally be at similar powerlevels in wb play. This can only be resolved by outside class balancing which I will not address now, but since the problem exists, let's examine how it affects Faction balance currently.

1. Destro has fewer "bad" classes/is more equally designed at the moment.

• Tanks: BO finally found a use in being a Move-speed increaser for parties and BG as mentioned above has some great AOEdebuffs

• Healers: Shamans synergise well with Choppas' Chop Fasta who in turn are prominently used as Mdps

• DPS: Sorcs are ideally wanted in all parties but Choppa, Mara, MSH (and in some cases WE) are all used. Magus and rSH are left out usually, but the later can easily respecialize to MSH

2. Order has power concentrated on fewer classes. Won't go in depth, but SM, IB, SW, AM and to a certain extent Engies and WHs do not bring out equal value to the other contenders for the same roles.

Does this mean that Order is weaker than Destro? No. Not really. It's just that players do not utilize the faction's strengths (that come in the form of classes they refuse/don't like to play).
In ideal setups Order are far stronger (imo). Here is a concrete example:

Killing someone is a game of numbers; the overall rate of dmg must be higher than the overall rate of healing towards that target from the moment their health drops from 100% up until it reaches 0%. The bigger the difference between the rates and the smaller their total health is, the faster/easier they will die.

• Let's assume that a party contains a KOTBS with Focused Mending tactic and a Warrior Priest using the ability Sigmar's Grace.
  That party will have 15% increased incoming heals and ~10% extra health pools.

• This means that an opposing Destro group will have to either somehow increase their dmg to their target by 15% of enemy heals or alocate more dps on that target to get the same rate of damage done.

• Since the WP wounds buff in in play, they will have to maintain the same rate of damage done for ~10% more time on the target.

On Destro side, the most comparable thing you can have is Chosen's 25% incoming heal debuff aura (KOTBS also has access to a 25% outgoing HD aura) and Blackguard's Hastened Doom tactic (which requires the ability to A. connect through block/parry and B. crit. Both chances can be lowered by Order by them investing in defensive stats).

To return to the topic; Order classes have the tools to fight equally (or even dominate combat, in my opinion). Due to class-related player agency they choose not to utilize them.

"Is it the fault of the players?"

No. Play whatever you like. Just expect results proportionate to the class you use.
Your faction is not underpowered. Your class is just not synergistic enough for wb play.
Balance patches should eventually equalize classes so that you are not punished for not playing KOTBS/RP/WP/Slayer.

Well everyone knows these yet nothing is being done ? Agree with everything said in this post also want to add destro having one more aoe mdps also help. But everyone should roll slayer mentality is not helpful and order needs better balancing not player agency into playing objectively better classes

[normanis]

So you don’t want to do 24v24 bc someone might use more advantageous add ons?

yes, its hard to explain for ppl who cant see or dont whant

[Uchoo]

So you don’t want to do 24v24 bc someone might use more advantageous add ons?

He's talking about this thread:


https://www.returnofreckoning.com/forum ... 54&t=52475

[Jajcek12]

Server cannot be destroyed because someone wrong design decision, because server is item, placed somewhere in France.
What can be worsened is players experience from playing this game.
After such a short time we cannot even evaluate latest patch in gaming experience and we can't be sure that's the “last” change.
What “kills server” is players mentality.All of us can make greate esseys what is going on and why(not/geared players.not/expierienced, not/premades ect ect. And all this bla bla bla that we are familiar with)
At the moment many players think that Destroy is OP and 90% of my gaming time is 20-80 aao for order.Because for some reason all players decide to go destro and zerg the other side. Since there is no serious impact assessment on patch- many players decide to believe the rumours about destro is OP and go there. And random players go where is more players and its simple human atavistic fact. Casual player who need to feel wining goes ther. So only one what “kills server” is players laziness and inability to face failures, also atavistic herd instinct.
And good suggestion - if you want to feel happy/wining you play destro - and if you need/want to play competetive hard game you play order.
Is it true that human atavism should be tamed by game design?- thas possible.
I can't force anyone to do this- but if you see that on one side is to many players or ther is organised warband , and you have opportunity to do this- yes you should Xrealm to the loosing side.
Ther is not problem of organisation on Order- ther will be no leaders when ther is noone to lead- and thats same also for destro. And all someone who pick this argument should think twice whats going on and in what circumstances. Even proper 2/2/2 pug cannot make any sagnificant change when playing vs 2 or 3 wb at the same time.

Ps: Ther was many content added to the game – ther are many events, many new pve content ect.(Bastion stairs ware re-opened)

Let me repeat my previous post because its still fits well here.

I don't have time to reply to all incorrect assumptions and conclusions based on expectations rather than facts. So i will write some a few general sentences.

Playing on Order side is different players experience- and different players play ther.
If player/guild xrealm to order and expect same gaming experience as it was on destro side- hes the'r just wrong.
This is place wher you play on hard mode- on: solo, pug, orgwb level. And when i hear from destro( or xrealmer- since many players are xrealmers) player that he cannot have same gamming expierience as it was on destro, or destro(or xrealmer) player told me how he want to order looks like – hmm let see – You're in the jungle baby You're gonna die “(noone will make friendly environmentl couse of you)
These are simply generalizing two offers for two different types of players/gaming expierience.(Two enviroments)
Destro – casual player zerg enjoiner that have fun from playing easy game cose of higher player base and all consequences with that- for sure ther is many of that player - just login for 1h play, and have feeling that they winning. And no one need to blame them that's how it is- they want to have that gaming expierience.
(Leading is easier and less demanding when you have 2wb stacked all the time vs 1wb in bad setup.)
Order- smaller player base and hard environment ,and all consequences with that- who force you to play better even in losing conditions- every day. And no one need to ennobled them that's how it is.
(Leading is harder and more demanding if you have 12 man party vs 2wb)
And i know its all the time dialectic of the same variables: leaders>players>Pugs(more player)-> ect. And bla bla bla )(wall of text)

If someone feel insulted – i dont care, face the reality as it is not as you expect it to be.

And “server” never will be “killed” just players must find place that best suits his playing style and gaming expectations. And dont know if that should be discussed even more and this “Destro vs Order discourse” is in fact problem that must be solfved or need to have “restore stability” to somthing that never had it and never would have it.

PS:I dont support any gifts for leader because it will be only decreasing leaders skill lever- couse leading is gift itself for player who can provide his ideas. When someone start to give gifts for leading, players will be leader only to get gift not to lead others.

Sincerely

[trh382]

Frustrations about realm balance based on your personal experience is understandable. However, your perception of faction balance may come almost entirely from the time / day that you play.

Overall balance is decentish in aggregate across the week - but could use improvement in specific times. Tracking what is happening on the rvr stats is where you will get a better understanding of RoR's broader state.

Most of the points about the underlying causes on the player sides - lack of pug leaders on order, the high impact of a specific guild xrealming or not running a warband on a certain night - seem correct to me.

Fixing scenario queues is something the devs have said they want to do. I do not think there is a perfect fix in a low pop system without the raw numbers to do full elo matching.

I think a version of the solo ranked queue for discordant would fix a lot of the complaints, but make it duo queues for discordant to encourage people playing with friends.

1. Add the interface that shows tanks/dps/healers in queue for discordant so that people understand how far away a queue pop might be and if the discordant scs are active (this is partially doable off of killboard, but the average new palyer will not know this)

2. Add a soft requirement for comp to avoid unplayable matches. I would say minimum 1 tank and 1 healer per 6. Tanglerss 1 2-2-2 and then fill also works. Ideally just try each for a week and look at stats, ask for feedback etc.

3. Consider letting discordant be cross faction like solo q ranked during off hours. EG weekday non EU primetime, discordant moves to cross faction in t1/t2/t4 just to actually get pops going. Keep discordant non cross faction during weekends and EU primetime to limit risk of killing group queue SCs.

4. My assumption is that the above changes are easily implementable since it involves the reuse of existing systems already coded for solo ranked. If my guess is correct, then I think the above should be put in place on a trial basis ASAP - just to see if we get some improved outcomes for SCs. It can be introduced as a trial change with a fixed sunset period - 1-2 weeks.

[IceHole]

I have been playing a long time, and don't really post a whole lot. But I honestly think how you are all discussing trying to "fix" the perceived problem is all wrong.

Balance should always ebb and flow. The meta will change over time, and should constantly be shifting around as changes are made. We just came off of a shitty 2 years or so without a single balance change, or combat related bug fix and its been bad. Now that things can and are being changed, we are going to see things shift. That is a good thing. Even if it makes you feel weaker using whatever class it is you are playing.

Now for what the REAL issue is in my opinion. Population balance. Right now the biggest issue is that population swings are huge. There are multiple reasons for this, and it isn't class balance at all. RoR rewards "winning" in a HUGE way.

Nerf "winning" and you solve a lot of the issues with RoR. Humping empty zones and PvDoor are SUPER rewarding. RoR shits out Warcrests for taking empty zones and forts. This is encouraging 2 types of behavior: Xrealming, and simply logging off. Players might as well play the side that they are going to make the most progression on (afterall, if the pop is ****, might as well be getting paid to play), or just log out and not play. No reason to play when you are just going to be getting farmed by 5x your numbers (Sorry, I play Late night NA time, its easily 5x).

So how do we fix this? A few things need to change. Reward structure needs to be adjusted for both "winning" and "losing". When 80 people storm a fort and 10 defenders are there, maybe the 10 defenders should have more than 4 white bags to roll on. Maybe they should get more than 10 crests for putting up their "best effort" defense. You know the side with 80 has 3 gold bags, 8 purple, 10 blue, 10 green, 10 white (whatever it is just some random counts), and getting 60-90 crests for the empty fort.

We are just encouraging bad player behavior with the reward structure. And encouraging the zurg to zurg, and not incentivizing players to participate on the outnumbered side. AAO helps, but ultimately doesn't really matter. Renown isn't the limiting factor in progression (At least from my experience, it is always crests. But again, I am late night NA, when Order is a mega blob and Doors are their primary #1 objective).

How how much do we increase awards? How do you balance them? I don't know. Maybe for a fort, the total rewards are based on the total number of participants, not the participants from one faction. Zone capture rewards should be roughly equal between winning and losing. Encourage people to stay and fight.

Give people more options, because right now its:
1. Get farmed, but make a ton of renown for what kills you can manage.
2. Cross Realm and get paid.
3. Log out and come back when things are actually fun.

Wishlist:
1. Remove AAO delay. The 15 minute thing is garbage. (And make AAO significantly increase crests drop).
2. Buff defenders rewards for Zones/ forts.
3. Nerf Empty zone rewards (potential for abuse here, but the only real way to abuse is to just not play. If people are not playing you have other issues) War Torn applies to zone rewards?
4. Add LotD debuff to groups > 1.5 wb in RvR when other side has AAO > 20%.
5. Show exact player counts in RvR lakes/ surface this info to players. (Feel like you are outnumbered? Are you really, or is it just in your head).
6. (the super long shot) Just remove Warcrests and the concept of warcrests altogether. Just let RR determine what gear is available. Keep Crests for consumables, special liniments, pots, etc.

These sorts of things don't magically "fix" the issues. But I think they help make players feel like they are able to make some sort of progress no matter the current faction balance.

Just my $.02

- Ice_Hole of OMG Im Drunk

[Jajcek12]

About sc expected changes i dont have opinion and correct insight about management possibilities in (coding) ect department.
About rvr expectated changes.
NoNoNO dont propose any unnesecary changes- or this human rabble will start to reloging to order just to claim rewards. All players should be gratify for their gamming in expected gamming expierience or they will quit game. And all this human trash will start reloging and destroying Order from the inside couse someone will payd them for it- and then will cry that its to hard for them?

[Dackjanielz]

How the system should work is that BOTH sides should be rewarded nicely for partaking in whatever activity, SC, siege, RVR - but the WINNER takes a bonus.

Currently its winner takes all and the loser gets spat on.

This is why X realming is rampant and no one bothers defending anymore.