[Engineer,Magus]Keg,Aegis change v.2

[Kragg]

Spoiler:

I see the destro nerf crew is at it again.

And I see you haven't read the Balance Discussion rules - Penril

[Penril]

I suggest everyone takes a moment to read the Balance Discussion rules.

In this particular case, we are discussing if current Keg implementation is fine. The scenario: balanced, COORDINATED groups.

PROVE that a coordinated keg engi WB/6-man can stomp a coordinated balanced WB/6-man (2-2-2 or 1-3-2). We don't care if a group of engies wiped a PUG/unorganized WB.

5. No PUG arguments.

Balance is based around classes being played competently. Do not make any argument which involves disparity of skill, gear or specialization on either side. It is desirable when buffing classes or specs to avoid making them PUG killers, but a buff to an underpowered element of the game which renders it or the class more powerful against PUGs is not a problem as long as this element has valid counterplay.

[Tesq]

Do you have any proof for 1), 4)?
If you're not sure about 3) then don't bring it into a discussion, simple.

I have no clue what your calculation is at c), Dirty Tricks is 5%. Encouraged Aim increases opponent's chance to be crit so I can't see how that affects the Keg. But yes, the KotBS can buff their party's chance to crit with heals by 5% and this affects the Keg.

The funny thing is that you could remove the Keg from the game and the Engineer warband viability would be unaffected. That's because Engi's don't get a spot in the WB because of the Keg, mostly because it's a lackluster ability UNLESS you build a WB around it and the Engi's potential to entrench themselves - BT warbands for example. Removing keg would make Dwarf/Engineer heavy warbands weaker but it would barely affect any optimised/meta warbands.

In the open field in ORvR combat the Keg doesn't do much. There's a lot of movement and a lot of burst damage from several sources where the healing of the Keg will be somewhat irrelevant. Sure it helps, but so does something like Khaine's Refreshment/Martyr's Blessing and how much usage does that get over focused party heals that do a much better job?

Where the keg shines is entrenched warfare, some the two careers should excell at. Form a warband around area denial, throw in a few kegs and they'll do a decent amount of healing - bolstering the defensive/immovable aspect of the group.

It's excellent in PuG on PuG combat as well, because of how disorganised damage and focus tends to be, but I don't think that needs to be discussed. If you look at how Keg performs in organised small-scale you'll see it's hardly worth mentioning. The best counter to it is focused burst damage, something 6 mans excell at. In addition small-scale fights tend to be quite mobile, something Engineers don't deal with very well, Keg included.

Edit: I also don't see why out of group healing is an issue. RoR is balanced around groups, premade play. How does the Engineer healing people out of his group (PuGs effectively) an issue? Or do people think that in warband play the Kegs crosshealing people is an issue (effectively placing a Pious Restoration on random 9 people)?

To be honest, it feels to me like this is an issue where PuGs whine about something that seems powerful in a PuG environment (like the WP/DoK whining after the ex changes). That and how effective BT WBs can be. Is a stacked Engineer warband too powerful in the current environment?

-1 engi on the forum confirmed few time ago that keg heals can crit, if my aura on live would had been able critted i would had know, i in fact reported this to aza early , think either in private message or whisper when we were still in t2, he said there was no problem with low crit chance and in live they were weak ability or something like that. KOBS crit tactic buff both offensive crit and healing crit so it's a total of 10% (5+5, pre nerf was 10+10). Keg heals can crit and base heal chance is 10 for every class and kobs basically boost this to 15%.

-no keg is better of any out of party heals because is immune to healò debuff and totall passive and heals 9 ppl.

-there is no engi set up lol.... engi get taken for the rift, that solo balance the lack of dmg, the point is have either more engi with more rift or just 1, it usually go with 1; keg help bring the second the point it's keg stack give 700 not crit heal ingoring heal debuff every 3 sec to the first 9 ppl taking dmg in front of the wb/realm which if they are tank is like saying tanks not gona die; because in the great scheme of dmg vs heals these regen make heal bar move right not left or either stay still for a moral push.

-keg is no mean balanced for small skirm and the talk about keg in fact dosen't resolve around 1 keg but around multiple keg which mean 9 player by 2x effect. Your efficent as aoe set up is dmg + rift : you should loose dmg if you have such a exploitable keg which all the realm can benefith from( 10 engi in orvr put all keg in the same spot 3k undebuffable heals on the tanks in the front line every 3 sec, **** yea).

-pugs are not whining about, pugs do not even now things as if they are influenced by heal debuff or not probably. >Organized group whinning about this from quite some times alredy as it was for kobs crit tactic. Organaized group are not only 6 men sc group so....

[peterthepan3]

Which organised premades (6man or wb) actually think engi keg is a problem? Very interested to know, given the relative silence from serious groups in regards to kegs.

[CegeePegee]

This is a genuine question because I truly do not know the answer and would appreciate some insight - What is the the counterplay for multiply-stacked kegs? They can't be targeted so no one can destroy them or debuff them in any way (that I am aware of, again please guide me if I'm wrong here) and in places where the enemy can't kb order away from the kegs (e.g. in the lord room of a keep) there appears to be no way to render them useless. From what I gather, the cooldown on them is such that there can be constant kegs in play with no limit to how many can stack. Is this accurate? and if so, what can a coordinated destro team do against them?

[Tankbeardz]

Honestly, I'll just leave this thread alone after this post. If people have the tenacity to throw warbands of keg engis together they deserve something for that kind of fortitude.

I'll be blunt.

•There is no sustainable heal from keg...and there never will be because there is no burst and there is no cleanse. That should be the end of the story right there alone.
•How many kegs would it take to accomplish what 1 healer can with a group heal?
•A simple hot form 1 healer is worth more than any tiny tick from a keg.

Enjoy the thread.

[Tesq]

Honestly, I'll just leave this thread alone after this post. If people have the tenacity to throw warbands of keg engis together they deserve something for that kind of fortitude.

I'll be blunt.

•There is no sustainable heal from keg...and there never will be because there is no burst and there is no cleanse. That should be the end of the story right there alone.
•How many kegs would it take to accomplish what 1 healer can with a group heal?
•A simple hot form 1 healer is worth more than any tiny tick from a keg.

Enjoy the thread.

a single hot from 1 dok/wP heal only his group which could even not take dmg so a wasted GCD, keg dosen't it heal every one; ppl running onto keg or tank in front line always benefith with a high efficency from this
a single out of party heal from dok/wp heal for very few; require 2 of these healers doing it togheter to be effective and while doing that (healing 9 ppl) they cannot do anything else because it's a channeling (the real use it's to heal while proc absorb tactic).
a single hot //////////// heal 9 ppl vs 6
a single hot //////////// can be heal debuff

regen have no valid coutner play as much have not valid coutner play the keg; the only way is force all the ppl to move away from the spot. Which is of course made more hard due the keg stack.

[Daknallbomb]

Y But u can Make a normal wb say to def a keep and can place 9 kegs from 9 engis that are not in grp in the Front line of the organized wb and u have no Chance to counter that. So the wb got his heals guards buff and so on and the Front line As example lord room, Postern door, all doors get healed about 3 k extra to all his heals what they get and its not affectet by heal debuff and so on.. Sry But thats crazy they dont have something to do for IT Just place IT an go away.

[CegeePegee]

Its also pretty interesting how the vast majority of people under the delusion that bugmans is OP dont actually have an engineer

Well of course, I wouldn't expect to see people who play engineer to call for their own class to get nerfed, that wouldn't make sense

[Thayli]

Limiting it to party only is a significant buff to keg, instead of the heals going to anyone around it they will then be focused upon people more important to the caster.

Its also pretty interesting how the vast majority of people under the delusion that bugmans is OP dont actually have an engineer

And the majority of people defending Keg are engineers... That argument goes both ways.

People seem to forget that there's some other skills that heal out of party, but nobody uses them because they are quite bad. As I said before, I think the problem is not so much the healing but rather the lack of meaningful options to deal with Keg. I don't feel that is unreasonable to ask.