[Implementation Feedback] Black Guard Mastery Tree

[zabis]

With Blade of Ruin being taken away, will the tactic Monstrous Ruin be changed?

[Vayra]

Changed FoF to work as a percentage value instead of being a static value. If you have 50% chance to be critically hit you will after a 45% reduction from Force of Fury then have a 27.5% chance to be critically hit as opposed to 5%.

That seems like a pretty massive nerf to the ability, not sure I like this even with the benefit being granted to the DP target. That -45% chance to be crit was a really good survivability tool and now became distinctly worse. If you're going to keep it, please at least make it apply on the sum of the BG's chance to be crit and attackers chance to crit (I assume those two values still stack additively?), otherwise I'd really prefer this change to be reverted.

[wargrimnir]

Changed FoF to work as a percentage value instead of being a static value. If you have 50% chance to be critically hit you will after a 45% reduction from Force of Fury then have a 27.5% chance to be critically hit as opposed to 5%.

That seems like a pretty massive nerf to the ability, not sure I like this even with the benefit being granted to the DP target. That -45% chance to be crit was a really good survivability tool and now became distinctly worse. If you're going to keep it, please at least make it apply on the sum of the BG's chance to be crit and attackers chance to crit (I assume those two values still stack additively?), otherwise I'd really prefer this change to be reverted.

"Seems like" is not the same as, "I've played this extensively and..."

We don't need theorycrafters, we need testers. Go test.

[Aurandilaz]

From managing a few scs yesterday, I could claim that the extra KD ability is quite helpful, though the high CD is a bit meh. I mean sure, some other KD do have same 20 sec, but other KDs like OYK has 10 secs. I would "suggest" (somewhat out of selfish reasons) to lower it to say 15 secs or 10 secs, which would further increase BGs importance as an offensive meleetrain tank. With current 20 seconds it is rare goodie.
But if you want, lowering it to 15 seconds, but increasing its cost to use could be a potential tradeoff.

Otherwise, the Malice tree looks pretty fabulous for now, apart from the ever so useless lower tactic that just makes no sense anyway.

it's the mid tree that is now slightly weird.

as for that crit rate comment above, my WE sits at 27% crit and with FM tactics can get to 42% (though the tactic is something I rarely use)

[roadkillrobin]

I found that using both Elite Training + FoF as one defensive reactive CD for DP target often saved em from certain death. It gave the healers that 2 extra seconds to burst em up to safe HP values. It's almoast like having a 2nd Challange availible imo.
What bothers me a bit is the extra time it takes from swaping both guard and DP to another target. I understand that there are benefits from being able to guard one person and DP another, but it's so extremtly situational and moast of the time focus is one target. Merging guard + DP/OF would be something i would really consider tbh.

[Aurandilaz]

No to Guard+DP merge
why:
-you will often prioritize guard over DP
-DP can be used to buff healers willpower without abandoning guard on dps
-DP can now be used to give small absorb shield, say, to a fellow tank
-in many situations it makes sense to put DP on a tank that is soaking up hits, but place guard on a dps that really needs it
-also keeps the class complex, and away from being too easy to manage. (if I wanted easymode tank I would be playing chosen)

In fact, if possible, I would like to see Dark Protector become a much major asset to the BG compared to previous "ill just stick it to someone and forget about it", effectively allowing BG to Guard and semi-Guard two targets if needed. (even posted a suggestion thread a few months ago with various ideas regarding DP)
Lore reasons: a trained force of elite bodyguards with centuries of training compared to lesser "tanks" such as big brainless orcs that only WAAAAGH around or Chaos Chosens who have less training and mostly just rely on Chaos gods granting them enough buffs to carry the fight.

The relatively high cost of FoF is somewhat "limiting" current BG potential, same with ET being high cost mastery ability as well.
However considering how easy it is for other tanks to have similarly good stuff at lower prices without sacrificing too much, I would love to see them dropped a bit downwards from their current locations in the Mastery trees. That is, if you really want BG to compete on equal terms for spots in a premade (especially meleetrains) when weighed against how good Chosen and Blorc still are.

[Marsares]

No to Guard+DP merge

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The relatively high cost of FoF is somewhat "limiting" current BG potential, same with ET being high cost mastery ability as well.
However considering how easy it is for other tanks to have similarly good stuff at lower prices without sacrificing too much, I would love to see them dropped a bit downwards from their current locations in the Mastery trees. That is, if you really want BG to compete on equal terms for spots in a premade (especially meleetrains) when weighed against how good Chosen and Blorc still are.

I agree, I wouldn't want Guard and DP to be merged as they serve different purposes and give complexity to the class.

I also agree that I would like to see DP be given more of a purpose. The recent changes are a good step in the right direction with ET, FoF and the bubble now impacting the DP, but ET is relatively high up in the tree and FoF is very high up in the tree. If you take both in order to maximise the buffs to your DP, then there's really not that much left that you can take as you're so starved for points. I'm RR50 with a +1 to the middle tree through full Ruin, and even then I'm one or two points short for a good build.

I really would like more abilities to have some benefit to whomever you applied the DP on - a BG should be about debuffing the enemy and buffing your DP - potentially even some base abilities. DP is our mechanic that makes us stand out from others but it should be much more integral to what we do. Like Aurandilaz says, we shouldn't just apply it to someone and forget about it.

Furthermore, the armour element of FoF is near useless given that it doesn't stack with armour pots, and with yesterday's changes to the crit chance I wonder if FoF is worth a 13pt ability (caveat - I haven't played it extensively though).

[Luth]

I mean sure, some other KD do have same 20 sec, but other KDs like OYK has 10 secs. I would "suggest" (somewhat out of selfish reasons) to lower it to say 15 secs or 10 secs, which would further increase BGs importance as an offensive meleetrain tank. With current 20 seconds it is rare goodie.

The majority of single target knockdowns has a 20 second cooldown. I only know 3 KDs with 10 second duration (WE, IB with shield and Mara with disrupt) and one 30 second KD (WL). Maybe this thread can focus on changes that make sense in the context of general balancing, rather than a wishlist for the own class.

Merging guard + DP/OF would be something i would really consider tbh.

Oathfriend/dark protector are off the global cooldown since ages, which means they can be used on a new target at any time; some people might also prefer to have separate targets for each buff.

[Fractus]

While the tank is a defensive element of a group yes, still perhaps adding an offensive buff to one of the Dark Protecter skills is needed to make it a more independent ability away from guard as it can be with IB.

So example below from experience.
Guard/oath(DP) is on a White lion(melee DPS) and suddenly your front line healer is focused:

Option 1 swap guard and oath/DP to healer and enable 2/3 defensive buffs on healer. (6/7 clicks)
- end result ally melee DPS is exposed healer safe but still under attack.

Option 2 which is quicker, is to swap guard to the healer but leave oath/DP on melee DPS and simply enable weapon skill buff to ally melee dps, then armor debuff on enemy followed by demolishing strike morale 1 armor debuff (5 clicks)
- end result melee DPS still able to be defensive buffed, healer saved, enemy target dies very quickly so healer no longer focused.

Perhaps to keep in line with lore this should be a magic user offensive buff.

[roadkillrobin]

Merging guard + DP/OF would be something i would really consider tbh.

Oathfriend/dark protector are off the global cooldown since ages, which means they can be used on a new target at any time; some people might also prefer to have separate targets for each buff.

The problem is Guard swap is two clicks and DP another one. (really don't understand why guard needs to be toggled off before reaplying it when skills like OF and DP don't)
I can easily make a keyboard macro for this. But it's clumpsy as hell without it. Also i said I understand the benefits of having it seperated, but my personal opinion is that its more awkward game play wise, then benefitial in terms of class mechanics. I'm having 0 biased opiniones regarding the BG. I don't really play it rather then to test stuff out and when i do play it, it feels extremly awkward. And moast of the problems i'm facing with the class is that i feel it doesn't really know what it wanna be due to having way to many active skills that have to little impact on the outcome. I think the class would really good of with having some skills merged tbh.