[AM/Sham] AP Drain

[Yardy]

I'm not the fizziest beer in the carton, so don't shake me up too much.

I would like to change nothing with the Shammy and AM ap drain and let a group composition hold the responsibility of AP control. Not sure on what order has for the alternative for the Black Orcs "Get 'em" ability, so why not just reduce this cooldown to 30secs rather than a minute or increase it's rate of regen. Group strength and weakness makes this game different from all the rest.

[footpatrol2]

Ok please educate me. How were the drain rates on AoR? Was it Option 1?

Here is a list of some of the AP feeds and Ap reducer's in this game. The list is LONG and I only did 7 1/2 ish classes and there is 24. There is a TON of Ap feeds and AP reducer's in this game.

Spoiler:

Master Rune of Fury if you have 2 in a group you got 2 triggers
Ritual of Innervation same as above
Feeding on pain tactic BG (reduce ap cost)
Elite training ability BG (Group Ap feed)
Driven by Hate ability BG (Ap feed)
Endless pursuit tactic BG (Ap feed)
Banish weakness m1 BG (Ap feed)
Draining Burn Tactic BW (Ap feed)
Burn out ability BW (Ap feed)
Devour energy tactic wizards (Ap feed)
Stop hittin da runts tactic BO (Ap feed endless feeding, individual)
Get em ability BO (Group Ap feed)
Can't touch Us BO (Group Ap feed)
Quick Reloader tactic Engi (reduce ap cost)
Bandoiler tactic Engi (reduce ap cost)
Extra ammo tactic Engi (works outside of group and stacks, potentially infinite Ap feed to multiple groups)
Clever recovery tactic ballistic classes (Ap feed)
Auto loader m1 Engi (Ap feed)
Keep on choppin ability Choppa (Ap feed)
Long lasta tactic Choppa (reduce Ap cost)
Easy killin tactic Choppa (reduce Ap cost)
Force of Will m2 mdps classes (Ap feed)
Supa Chop m3 Choppa (reduce Ap cost)
Earthen Renewal m4 IB (Group Ap feed)
Told ya so tactic IB (Group Ap feed)
Watch n Learn ability IB (Ap feed)
Grudge Unleashed ability IB(Ap feed)
Relentless Training tactic IB(reduce Ap cost)
Dreadful Terror Aura Chosen (Group Ap feed)
Feed the weary tactic Chosen (Ap feed)
Corruptive power tactic Chosen (reduce Ap cost)
Sprout Carapace m4 (Group Ap feed)
Power from the Gods (Ap feed)
Inevitable Changing m1 (Ap feed)
Chaotic advantage (Ap feed, endless)
Efficient swings (reduce Ap cost)
To Glory aura knight (group Ap feed)

The existence of abilities without consideration as to their validity within reasonable group based builds does not forward the discussion. A short example of how a small selection of said abilities fit into reasonable group compositions would be more appropriate and allow for others to counter argue.

Gerv.

[dansari]

I don't play shammy; I've only been effectively shut down by good shammies during the entirety of some fights. It's incredibly frustrating to play against an ap drain because it has very little counterplay. I think to correct the situation we either need to

1. Keep the values as they are but reduce the uptime (like a cc immunity of 20s).
2. Reduce the values but keep the uptime (not sure of the actual numbers here but cutting it by 33-50% doesn't seem outrageous)

[Morf]

Ok please educate me. How were the drain rates on AoR? Was it Option 1?

Here is a list of some of the AP feeds and Ap reducer's in this game. The list is LONG and I only did 7 1/2 ish classes and there is 24. There is a TON of Ap feeds and AP reducer's in this game.

Spoiler:

Master Rune of Fury if you have 2 in a group you got 2 triggers
Ritual of Innervation same as above
Feeding on pain tactic BG (reduce ap cost)
Elite training ability BG (Group Ap feed)
Driven by Hate ability BG (Ap feed)
Endless pursuit tactic BG (Ap feed)
Banish weakness m1 BG (Ap feed)
Draining Burn Tactic BW (Ap feed)
Burn out ability BW (Ap feed)
Devour energy tactic wizards (Ap feed)
Stop hittin da runts tactic BO (Ap feed endless feeding, individual)
Get em ability BO (Group Ap feed)
Can't touch Us BO (Group Ap feed)
Quick Reloader tactic Engi (reduce ap cost)
Bandoiler tactic Engi (reduce ap cost)
Extra ammo tactic Engi (works outside of group and stacks, potentially infinite Ap feed to multiple groups)
Clever recovery tactic ballistic classes (Ap feed)
Auto loader m1 Engi (Ap feed)
Keep on choppin ability Choppa (Ap feed)
Long lasta tactic Choppa (reduce Ap cost)
Easy killin tactic Choppa (reduce Ap cost)
Force of Will m2 mdps classes (Ap feed)
Supa Chop m3 Choppa (reduce Ap cost)
Earthen Renewal m4 IB (Group Ap feed)
Told ya so tactic IB (Group Ap feed)
Watch n Learn ability IB (Ap feed)
Grudge Unleashed ability IB(Ap feed)
Relentless Training tactic IB(reduce Ap cost)
Dreadful Terror Aura Chosen (Group Ap feed)
Feed the weary tactic Chosen (Ap feed)
Corruptive power tactic Chosen (reduce Ap cost)
Sprout Carapace m4 (Group Ap feed)
Power from the Gods (Ap feed)
Inevitable Changing m1 (Ap feed)
Chaotic advantage (Ap feed, endless)
Efficient swings (reduce Ap cost)
To Glory aura knight (group Ap feed)

The drain rate on ror is every 1 second, the drain rate on live (which was changed here because it was unreliable and often didnt drain at all) was every 3 secs.

I get you but at the same time you only have a set amount of mastery points and tactic slots, i think its unreasonable to ask players to lose important mastery specs and tactics because of a single ability , i could understand if you setup a fight and you knew the group you were fighting ran x builds/setup so you chose to run a unorthodox setup yourself to counter it but this isnt that situation, most the stuff u listed are unreasonable options, options that may work v ap drains but end up working against you when you dont face an ap drain, the loss v gain is a very unrealistic option.

To add on what other points i have made, dont you think it would be better if ap drain worked more of a buff than a debuff ? i have no idea the thoughts of the original AOR devs but imo i believe thats how it was intended to be used due to how ap starved shamans and to a lesser extent am's (wild healing) were on AOR, i dont believe for one minute it was supposed to work how it currently is, that being an ability able to shut someone down for the entire fight.

Moving forward:
- Provide evidence there are alternaive solutions, not already posted, to restoring group AP

Gerv.

The options that seem realistic to me and dont involve weird specs where you lose a bunch are kotbs/chosen ap aura, zealot/runie ap ritual/rune and to a lesser extent dok/wp restored motivation and refreshing radiance which both require a tactic slot, lesser extent because they are not always used.

[footpatrol2]

The drain rate on ror is every 1 second, the drain rate on live (which was changed here because it was unreliable and often didnt drain at all) was every 3 secs.

If the drain rate on AoR is every 3 sec's I can get behind this change. So I will change my vote to yes on option 1.

I get you but at the same time you only have a set amount of mastery points and tactic slots, i think its unreasonable to ask players to lose important mastery specs and tactics because of a single ability

I don't think it is unreasonable to adapt your playstyle and be more modular with your group comp.

To add on what other points i have made, dont you think it would be better if ap drain worked more of a buff than a debuff ?

No I do not. It has that aspect to it but draining is a large part of the self protection of a AM/Shaman.

I have no idea the thoughts of the original AOR devs but imo i believe thats how it was intended to be used due to how ap starved shamans and to a lesser extent am's (wild healing) were on AOR, i dont believe for one minute it was supposed to work how it currently is, that being an ability able to shut someone down for the entire fight.

I believe it was designed to shut down a player for the entire fight if the opposition ignore's ap drains. You can't ignore the ap drains and you shouldn't. You can Cleanse These AP drains. You can control your group and break LoS and force the opposition to come to you. blah blah lots of tricks. Almost every group comp has access to 2 healers if not more if they take a dps healer. which is a advantage of a dps healer. The easiest counter to the drains is to cleanse it.

WP can't cleanse Ap drains. If your taking a single WP as one of the main healer's your group comp is weak to potential ap drains. If you take 2 WP as your main healer your counter is a group that can AP drain decently.

Shaman's can't cleanse Ap drains. If your taking a single Shaman as one of the main healer your group comp is weak to potential ap drains. If you take 2 shaman's as your main healers your counter is a group that can ap drain decently.

There are ways to mitigate Ap drain's with 2 shaman's as main healers but this post is already too long so i'll stop here.

Quick final note here: AP drains from the shaman and AM are not only for healers it is also for dps AM/Shamans and makes taking a dps Am/shaman a attractive option for premade organizers BECAUSE they bring a additional drain with high intel on it which can land on healers/tanks more reliably. Currently healing AM/Shaman's that don't take a lot of intel can only reliably land those ap drains with consistency on Rdps and mdps not on tanks and healers.

@Yardy
Bo's have get em. SW have the mirrored ability called Hunter's Fervor.

[spikespiegel84]

Wouldn't it be easier making every tick disruptable?

When replying to discussions, please follow the rules of posting supported by evidence explaining how you point relates to the proposal under consideration and how your point alleviated or addresses the issues identified in previous posts as this allows fluide discussion.
Continued one line posts without reasoning or explination will be warned.

Gerv.

[roadkillrobin]

I personally don't like slow resource drain effects in this game due to not be able to see your oponent Morale/AP bars, so it's kinda done in the dark and would much more prefer if such effects were instant full value with longer CD's.

How about Drain 180 AP from your oponent with 1min CD?

[zumos2]

I personally don't like slow resource drain effects in this game due to not be able to see your oponent Morale/AP bars, so it's kinda done in the dark and would much more prefer if such effects were instant full value with longer CD's.

How about Drain 180 AP from your oponent with 1min CD?

For me that would be an argument to keep it this way. Having an instant AP drain of the full value of 180 in the dark would really be more of gamble than an AP drain over time that would always give you something back.

[hacbjr]

noob question whats the CD on the AP pot?

[roadkillrobin]

I personally don't like slow resource drain effects in this game due to not be able to see your oponent Morale/AP bars, so it's kinda done in the dark and would much more prefer if such effects were instant full value with longer CD's.

How about Drain 180 AP from your oponent with 1min CD?

For me that would be an argument to keep it this way. Having an instant AP drain of the full value of 180 in the dark would really be more of gamble than an AP drain over time that would always give you something back.

The reciving end of the debuff is what broken here. Using a AP potion or run back to regain after you been drained and you be reovered in maybe 1-5 seconds. As the caster of it, i'm pretty sure you would gain the full 180 AP nomather how much you would drain. The difference between active version and mine sugestion is that in current version 2 AM/SH can lock someone down permantetly from playing the game. While with mine they can't.