IB and Slayer are gradually getting weaker as the game progresses

[Tesq]

all classes named in this thread need attention,

-choppa/slayer on their 2h and rage mastery
-IB half upper mid mastery dead (like chosen)
-BG half upper right mastery dead (like kobs)

all true...

[Baalos]

From the point of view of a dedicated RR80+ IB/SL duo:
The OP should come to terms with the concept of group-play (e.g.:assists, CC, compositions,...) and their classes limitations (e.g.: archetype, toolkit/class mechanic, gearing, maintenance, ...) - the proposed changes are absolutely unncessary; there is no point to balance around 'user error'. Solutions to the problem are already in the game; bring an assisting dps with you, slap debuffs (e.g.: armor debuffs, ini debuffs, HDs,...) on your targets, deploy CC (e.g.: guardstrips, silence/stagger/kd on healers, SL/FR,...) and spec/gear* your classes accordingly.

*A dwarf master race only warband could, for example:
Dedicate two engis to debuff initiative (conq 5pc, BL 6pc, inv 7pc), armor (onslaught 5pc), cast time (CM) and avoidance (PD) via Napalm/LR/PS/SD/BS spam/LM, aswell as one engi to magnet and SfD duty; dedicate two - for uptime's sake - RPs to HD dispensers (note: I am unsure about the new armor debuff's stacking benaviour); invest locally (EA/CR/WnL/TYS/MRoF) into AP feeds; have their IBs do their due diligence of cycling buffs (HtL, parry, crit, ...), challenges and morales whilst coordinating CC (SfD, LM, REA with PE, magnet, SL) with the Engis and Slayers; yadayada, - besides merely coordinating on a very basic level (voicecom, soundboards, enemy assist, TOL macros, Morale Circle, chat) - to funnel as much as possible into a midgety ball-of-death.

There are so many tools in this game, better use them instead of trying to get it all watered down - focus your attention on things that are useless regardless of the level of effort you put into capitalizing on it:

IB:
Overprotective (%proc and/or damage traits, e.g.: turning it into a direct hit to allow it to proc stuff would be enough)
Oath of Vengeance (stack hierachy)
Oathstone (implementation boils down to rng; can hardly be utilized outside of the smallest of small scale encounters)
Avenging the Debt (pointless concept; it's not even worth the investment in straight up solo PvE grind)
Long Reach (pointless concept; it should increase targetcap if anything)
Slayer
Runic Blessing (pointless concept)
Takin' Chances (pointless concept; only sees any use in straight up solo PvE grind)
Honor Restored (poimtless concept; it's not even worth the investment in straight up solo PvE grind)

It goes without saying that any rework should either come with tangible drawbacks if they introduce new mechanics/stats/tweaks to these classes or simply aim to make these tactics/abilities viable in some niche (even if that is just dungeon crawling), so to not mess with the integrity of the classes and the realms.

Furthermore, mind the fact that the above is not a problem that is exclusive to IB/SL, every single class in this game has pseudo-existant tactics/abilties - nor is the slight physical mitigation creep (to which there are still numerous viable counters, we won't hit live levels of mitigation any time soon) a problem exclusive to these classes either.

This post is founded on a long conversation between me and my midget guardbot, which result into this well-thought post of dwarfish power and how to use it correctly.

[Flavorburst]

IB:
Overprotective (%proc and/or damage traits, e.g.: turning it into a direct hit to allow it to proc stuff would be enough)
Oath of Vengeance (stack hierarchy)
Oathstone (implementation boils down to rng; can hardly be utilized outside of the smallest of small scale encounters)
Avenging the Debt (pointless concept; it's not even worth the investment in straight up solo PvE grind)
Long Reach (pointless concept; it should increase targetcap if anything)

Couldn't agree more with this.

I would probably also add Relentless Training as being pretty garbage, but maybe it serves some point as a PvE threat rotation that I am not thinking through (like HB > GB > GB > repeat)... but at that point, why not just slot Long-Held Grudge to have ALL your attacks generate a lot of threat instead of relying on GB spam?

[tazdingo]

tesq is right some tanks just have dead trees filled with garbage. does anybody take bo/sm mid 13 either? some of this stuff just sucks so hard i don't know why morales are getting the attention first

[Reesh]

Slayer have already received his armor bypass via invader 7th bonus, in addition slayer doesn't need an armor debuff since it have the berserk mechanic which is armor debuff In a certain sense.

Classes should not be balanced with gear as a major rule.
Also, comparing that mechanic from dealing no damage at all, to dealing damage on par with other mdps whilst gimping yourself, to an armor debuff is absurd.

[orillah]

There is often argument that some classes just need help from others to shine or be at least decent. Im completly disagree with that statement, its far better if synergy with others will make you even stronger, not define you as usefull with group/useless without.

[anarchypark]

tesq is right some tanks just have dead trees filled with garbage. does anybody take bo/sm mid 13 either? some of this stuff just sucks so hard i don't know why morales are getting the attention first

my sm use vaul's tempering.
when u penetrating aoe stun with mdps, shrugging off mara pull on healers.
those rare moments made me keep using it. it's like homerun.

[Ysaran]

Classes should not be balanced with gear as a major rule.

I never said it was a good idea.

Also, comparing that mechanic from dealing no damage at all, to dealing damage on par with other mdps whilst gimping yourself, to an armor debuff is absurd.

Why?

There is often argument that some classes just need help from others to shine or be at least decent. Im completly disagree with that statement, its far better if synergy with others will make you even stronger, not define you as usefull with group/useless without.

Every class have his own weak point (maybe with mara exception), all the classes need a party to shine, to me you statement have no sense. Can you elaborate?

[Grobbok]

slayer weak?
what about choppa!!!
but I see only order classes need attention
I saw a topic about how weak is SW, how bad is SM, AM, now slayer and IB
but everything on destro is perfect
"just if you see slayer the best what you can do is run away", someone words

[Ysaran]

slayer weak?
what about choppa!!!
but I see only order classes need attention
I saw a topic about how weak is SW, how bad is SM, AM, now slayer and IB
but everything on destro is perfect
"just if you see slayer the best what you can do is run away", someone words

You see a lot of Order topic because they are louder than Destro, that's all.
if you want to see some change on choppa open a post and write some good proposal.