ICONIC to the devs

[Direbloodykiller]

He knew exactly why he was banned, he was just being a whiny asshole about it. Half the fun of ban appeals are putting these idiots in their place when they try to use incredulity as a defense for obvious bad acting. The defense that they were simply able to do something clearly in violation of any intended consequence that has significant detrimental effect on other players is not lost by those people, it's embraced and sought after so they can do as much griefing as possible when the situation presents itself. Something about not being hugged as children maybe.

Gentlemen, you had already aroused my curiosity. Now you have my attention. - Calvin Candie (Django Unchained)
Tell us more pls!

i know this post derailed and i understand my part in it but i cant help myself:

viewtopic.php?f=87&t=34289

[madrocks]

Spoiler:

Great city siege last night. Lots of fun! It worked a lot better than I expected. If we could do this once a week until it goes live that would be awesome.

Additionally, I liked max Queue being 6 people. This prevents a total stomp from a wb. Unless you can have separate wb Queues, and then the rest.

Keep up the good work

-ICONIC

Belladona! <3 It's nice to see ICONIC being active again. Are you?

I agree with the op.
Yet I would not even allow warbands at all to Q up. It will only go down to easy mode class stacking aoem2 bullshit.
With all the obvious negative objections that a Warband Q system will bring, a 36v36 6man or 12man Q is the only way.
Keeping it small scale has many benefits:

• Increased diversity of the classes on field.
  Players are forced to communicate.
  Players have to learn to play their classes properly and not bandwagon a bombing meta.
  I reckon it will make small scale guilds return to the game.
  Scenario popularity will increase as players are forced to play together and create group/player synergy.

If city sieges are supposed to be the endgame goal for pvp gear, then players should really kneel into it to archive a flawless victory.
The way I see it, farming pugs with a ready guild-warband is not competitive play. We have a **** meme going for this in the guild: "one more flank!"

As Kellan said in his post, small scale intersted players have basically only scenarios as proper playground. Guild and pug warbands have the whole map, and even fort! Yes.. one could argue a 6man could cap flags and run supplies (ROFL) or cap flags in forts.. have you seen anyone ever do that?


I asked in the PUG warband today what they think about the system the way it has been tested.
I heard mostly positive feedback. Nobody complained about not being able to Q as a warband.
Many players enjoyed the smoothness of the fights.
----

but lutz, the testing was mearly a test where it was outspoken that queing as solo or up to 6-man was applied to this test. there isn't much to complain about then, now innit?

the problem with the whole tread is that folks only want whats best for themself... the funny thing is that we smallscale (yes, i count myself into that category even that im most of the time are running solo) already got everything lined up in front of us. if youre not playing for gearprogression - what is the problem?
if you do play for gear progression -> get in line and play pug wb for rvr currency... you cant have it all.

What I meant to say is that people actually liked how it went down. Even if this form of the city siege might not be the way it is/was/might/couldbe/2weeks intended, they still liked it.

Some opinions in the threat are very biased, I agree, even the OP (maybe a bit?). Belladona is right though.





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I will edit this post eventually.

[Direbloodykiller]

Spoiler:

Great city siege last night. Lots of fun! It worked a lot better than I expected. If we could do this once a week until it goes live that would be awesome.

Additionally, I liked max Queue being 6 people. This prevents a total stomp from a wb. Unless you can have separate wb Queues, and then the rest.

Keep up the good work

-ICONIC

Belladona! <3 It's nice to see ICONIC being active again. Are you?

I agree with the op.
Yet I would not even allow warbands at all to Q up. It will only go down to easy mode class stacking aoem2 bullshit.
Maybe allow a 12man Q.. if even... keeping it small scale has many benefits:

• Increased diversity of the classes on field.
  Players are forced to communicate.
  Players have to learn to play their classes properly and not bandwagon a bombing meta.
  I reckon it will make small scale guilds return to the game.
  Scenario popularity will increase as players are forced to play together and create group synergy.

I asked in the PUG warband today what they think about the system the way it has been tested.
I heard mostly positive feedback. Nobody complained about not being able to Q as a warband.




-------
I will edit this post eventually.

but lutz, the testing was mearly a test where it was outspoken that queing as solo or up to 6-man was applied to this test. there isn't much to complain about then, now innit?

EDIT: ok, i hear you and i understand your point

the problem with the whole tread is that folks only want whats best for themself... the funny thing is that we smallscale (yes, i count myself into that category even that im most of the time are running solo) already got everything lined up in front of us. if youre not playing for gearprogression - what is the problem?
if you do play for gear progression -> get in line and play pug wb for rvr currency... you cant have it all.

[Alfa1986]

Is there really a lot of guilds on the server that can get a full wb anytime of the day or night? I guess that a maximum of 2-3, and then only in EU prime time. but let's be honest, to create city sieges in prime time will be very difficult, and at that time it will be very rare. mainly city sieges will occur at a time when the server population will not be as large (as forts are now), guilds will not be able to collect full guild warbands, and most likely such warbands will not have all the necessary classes for the 2-2-2 scheme.

[madrocks]

Is there really a lot of guilds on the server that can get a full wb anytime of the day or night? I guess that a maximum of 2-3, and then only in EU prime time. but let's be honest, to create city sieges in prime time will be very difficult, and at that time it will be very rare. mainly city sieges will occur at a time when the server population will not be as large (as forts are now), guilds will not be able to collect full guild warbands, and most likely such warbands will not have all the necessary classes for the 2-2-2 scheme.

Exactly that.
So assuming a fort push happens at EU prime time and we have 100+ defenders stacked in the fort. City siege is not happening. Forget about it. If there is one decent leader online, and there are quite a few out there, attackers will be wrecked on the outer gates or face a wall on the inner keep unless a lucky strategy worked out.....

Now assuming the fort push is successful.. because 270 Destro vs 80 Order or the other way around.. and we all know xrealming is a thing, why should the bandwagon continue all the way into the city.
The city siege as a 36vs36 instance with a group Q system allows the defender to have a good last stand. Player skill counts, not numbers and class stacking.

[Jabba]

Make it 24 v 24 and have separate queues just like the 6v6 does atm.

Have one queue you can only queue into as a whole warband, and then a separate queue you queue into as a group or less.

If there aren't enough warbands to pair them off against one another, then they can break into 6 mans and join the other queue.

[Acidic]

I follow the thinking in the thread that reducing the impact of the bomb warband is a good thing. Agree to some extent with this mentality but I don’t think that stopping them queue as warband will fix that.

The other point that raises my eyebrow a bit with thinking 6man is only way to go , while WB play is absolutely needed to get to city.

So as I see it the thinking of op is that the organized warbands do the work to push the zones only to have to disband at city. This would I believe be a disaster for organized guilds and ppl who enjoy the larger scale combat.

[Aethilmar]

All the fretting about the mechanics for joining a City are pointless if the reason for joining a City isn't "correct".

If the reason for joining a City is it is fun, then people will just gravitate to it naturally.

If the reason for joining a City is endgame gear, you will get a repeat of Forts which is highly optimized groups/warbands will find ways to bypass the systems in place to farm the content as efficiently as possible where "efficient" is with as little opposition as possible. It has happened before. It will happen again.

Ultimately it is all about the reward system and the devs have (in recent months) chosen to pursue a WoW-ish model with gear being the reason for doing content (as opposed to content being the reason to do content). To be fair it is a proven model (for PvE at least) but nothing you guys are discussing about group/warband limiting is going to stop what will come next.

[Aurandilaz]

I was hopeful for a long time, that eventually all classes would be welcome in warbands after enough of balancing had been done - and then we would get forts and cities where bringing any class would be fine and wouldn't "compromise" your team by bringing a subpar class that then either means less chance of contributing to a fight, or smaller chance at earning contribution from PQ.
Well, limited hope after forts released, and now the chance of there being proper balance changes before cities release, looks also rather slim.
A proper warband will absolutely roflstomp a horde of pugs that bring large variety of classes, of which only few might be running specs that even suit a warband fight encounter. (especially Order, who seems to have a chronic lack of tanks since forever, as well as being somewhat limited to running bomb BWs, few Slayers and occasional wb spec engi - whereas on Destro its mostly the WE that is ostracised out of warbands)


Also really not sure what devs are preparing in case of 300 attackers vs 100 defenders, first steamrolling through fort and then into city. Would the 100 defenders fill 3 instances, and 100 attackers join those, then the remaining 200 would go clicking tents and blowing up barrels in empty instances while escorting NPCs to palace gates?

[Alfa1986]

Is there really a lot of guilds on the server that can get a full wb anytime of the day or night? I guess that a maximum of 2-3, and then only in EU prime time. but let's be honest, to create city sieges in prime time will be very difficult, and at that time it will be very rare. mainly city sieges will occur at a time when the server population will not be as large (as forts are now), guilds will not be able to collect full guild warbands, and most likely such warbands will not have all the necessary classes for the 2-2-2 scheme.

Exactly that.
So assuming a fort push happens at EU prime time and we have 100+ defenders stacked in the fort. City siege is not happening. Forget about it. If there is one decent leader online, and there are quite a few out there, attackers will be wrecked on the outer gates or face a wall on the inner keep unless a lucky strategy worked out.....

Now assuming the fort push is successful.. because 270 Destro vs 80 Order or the other way around.. and we all know xrealming is a thing, why should the bandwagon continue all the way into the city.
The city siege as a 36vs36 instance with a group Q system allows the defender to have a good last stand. Player skill counts, not numbers and class stacking.

if you hint that forts with the cap would be more appropriate in this case (prime time), then you are mistaken. open forts can now be theoretically won by gathering zerg of attackers in prime time, but if there is the cap again then you can forget about any city sieges in prime time at all. Only if you don’t make the cap so that there are twice as many attackers as defenders 2vs1.
In any case, the general process of blocking zones, and after them, and forts, takes a very long time, and goes beyond the time frame of ordinary guild events ( 2-4 hours).