Lots of Numbers: T4 PUG SCs

[lumpi33]

Hello,

here is an evaluation of T4 PUG scenarios (the last 5717 rounds played):

Note: The result is scollable

Code: Select all

SC DUO/T4 - Total SCs evaluated: 5717
SC DUO/T4 - Order SCs rounds won: 2529 of 5717
SC DUO/T4 - Destro SCs rounds won: 3188 of 5717
SC DUO/T4 - Order with more players: 892 of 5717
SC DUO/T4 - Destro with more players: 678 of 5717
SC DUO/T4 - Order with +1 player: 750 of 5717
SC DUO/T4 - Order with +1 player and 1 quitter: 509 of 5717
SC DUO/T4 - Destro with +1 player: 576 of 5717
SC DUO/T4 - Destro with +1 player and 1 quitter: 419 of 5717
SC DUO/T4 - Order with +2 players: 121 of 5717
SC DUO/T4 - Destro with +2 players: 88 of 5717
SC DUO/T4 - Order with >= +3 players: 21 of 5717
SC DUO/T4 - Destro with >= +3 players: 14 of 5717
SC DUO/T4 - Order side total quitters: 1336 in 5717 rounds
SC DUO/T4 - Destro side total quitters: 1145 in 5717 rounds
SC DUO/T4 - Order side with no tanks: 283 of 5717
SC DUO/T4 - Destro side with no tanks: 218 of 5717
SC DUO/T4 - Order side with no healers: 236 of 5717
SC DUO/T4 - Destro side with no healers: 155 of 5717
SC DUO/T4 - Order side with no dps: 5 of 5717
SC DUO/T4 - Destro side with no dps: 4 of 5717
SC DUO/T4 - Order side no healers and won: 35 of 5717
SC DUO/T4 - Destro side no healers and won: 33 of 5717
SC DUO/T4 - Order side no healers and loss: 201 of 5717
SC DUO/T4 - Destro side no healers and loss: 122 of 5717
SC DUO/T4 - Order side no tanks and won: 91 of 5717
SC DUO/T4 - Destro side no tanks and won: 89 of 5717
SC DUO/T4 - Order side no tanks and loss: 192 of 5717
SC DUO/T4 - Destro side no tanks and loss: 129 of 5717
SC DUO/T4 - Order dominating SC with > 3x Destro kills done: 1388 of 5717
SC DUO/T4 - Destro dominating SC with > 3x Order kills done: 2105 of 5717
SC DUO/T4 - Balanced SCs (neither dominating, kills <= 3x other kills): 2224 of 5717
SC DUO/T4 - Order having 2/2/2 comp (1/3 tanks, 1/3 healers, 1/3 dps): 149 of 5717
SC DUO/T4 - Destro having 2/2/2 comp (1/3 tanks, 1/3 healers, 1/3 dps): 209 of 5717
SC DUO/T4 - Order having 2/2/2 comp and won (independent of Destro comp): 85 of 5717
SC DUO/T4 - Destro having 2/2/2 comp and won (independent of Order comp): 140 of 5717
SC DUO/T4 - Order 2/2/2 vs Destro 2/2/2 and Order won: 4 of 5717
SC DUO/T4 - Destro 2/2/2 vs Order 2/2/2 and Destro won: 5 of 5717
SC DUO/T4 - Order 2/2/2 comp vs Destro with no 2/2/2: 140 of 5717
SC DUO/T4 - Destro 2/2/2 comp vs Order with no 2/2/2: 200 of 5717
SC DUO/T4 - Order 2/2/2 comp vs Destro with no 2/2/2 and won:81 of 5717
SC DUO/T4 - Destro 2/2/2 comp vs Order with no 2/2/2 and won: 135 of 5717
SC DUO/T4 - Order 2/2/2 comp vs Destro with no 2/2/2 and loss: 59 of 5717
SC DUO/T4 - Destro 2/2/2 comp vs Order with no 2/2/2 and loss: 65 of 5717
SC DUO/T4 - Order avg % of tanks in SC: 23,26
SC DUO/T4 - Destro avg % of tanks in SC: 27,01
SC DUO/T4 - Order avg % of healers in SC: 24,59
SC DUO/T4 - Destro avg % of healers in SC: 27,68
SC DUO/T4 - Order avg % of dps in SC: 52,15
SC DUO/T4 - Destro avg % of dps in SC: 45,32
SC DUO/T4 - Order avg % of mdps in SC: 27,17
SC DUO/T4 - Destro avg % of mdps in SC: 24,36
SC DUO/T4 - Order avg % of rdps in SC (SW as rpds): 24,98
SC DUO/T4 - Destro avg % of rdps in SC (SH as rdps): 20,95

What can we tell from this?

- Destro is winning more PUG SCs.

- Destro is dominating a lot more rounds (24% order, 36% destro, rest balanced)

- Destro has more tanks and healers in there, Order more dps.

- There are almost no rounds without any healers

- There are lots of quitters

The most important take away for me is this:

The SC T4 Standard evaluation I did some time ago (viewtopic.php?t=48813) showed that only 1/3 of all T4 SCs are basically balanced in kills and 2/3 are heavily dominated by one side.

SC STANDARD/T4 - Order dominating SC with > 3x Destro kills done: 4655 of 13596
SC STANDARD/T4 - Destro dominating SC with > 3x Order kills done: 4122 of 13596
SC STANDARD/T4 - Balanced SCs (neither dominating, kills <= 3x other kills): 4819 of 13596

This evaluation showed that the ratio is a bit better and there are slightly more balanced SCs but still a lot of domination going on and a lot of quitters.

SC DUO/T4 - Order dominating SC with > 3x Destro kills done: 1388 of 5717
SC DUO/T4 - Destro dominating SC with > 3x Order kills done: 2105 of 5717
SC DUO/T4 - Balanced SCs (neither dominating, kills <= 3x other kills): 2224 of 5717

I might be wrong but for me the main reason for Order losing more is less healers, less tanks and teethless rdps that simply cannot kill tanks or guarded targets in small scale SCs. It requires an army to bring down a single SOV tank even when they are not getting heals. In SCs the SOVs tanks are nearly unkillable with some heals, especially the Shaman dual hotting that gives around 1000+ health per tick and 250 toughness. We also know from the previous career break down posts that there are LOT of shamans and that destro tanks do roughly twice the damage of the order tanks. I think that is the most frustrating aspect of the game. People are playing dps and can't kill certain targets. Then they go **** this and leave.

Id start with nerfing that no crit vs absorbs mechanic. Crits matter a lot when it comes to damage. When you crit less you do less damage. When aborbs are up you don't crit and your damage gets absorbed. With RP/Zealot, SM/BG, WP/DOK and all the self absorbs there are tons of absorbs where you can't crit. That non crit on absorb mechanic needs to go.

Cheers

[wachlarz]

Maybe the results are what they are, because order plays premade and always has 2/2/2 on sc, on rvr warbands are 2/2/2 and in pug scenarios these healers are missing? Destro doesn't like premade, so they plays pug solo, so there are fewer helers but, they are everywhere.

[wachlarz]

Hello,
I might be wrong but for me the main reason for Order losing more is less healers, less tanks and teethless rdps that simply cannot kill tanks or guarded targets in small scale SCs. It requires an army to bring down a single SOV tank even when they are not getting heals. In SCs the SOVs tanks are nearly unkillable with some heals, especially the Shaman dual hotting that gives around 1000+ health per tick and 250 toughness. We also know from the previous career break down posts that there are LOT of shamans and that destro tanks do roughly twice the damage of the order tanks. I think that is the most frustrating aspect of the game. People are playing dps and can't kill certain targets. Then they go **** this and leave.

Id start with nerfing that no crit vs absorbs mechanic. Crits matter a lot when it comes to damage. When you crit less you do less damage. When aborbs are up you don't crit and your damage gets absorbed. With RP/Zealot, SM/BG, WP/DOK and all the self absorbs there are tons of absorbs where you can't crit. That non crit on absorb mechanic needs to go.

Cheers

1. Are U play a healer ? If not dont tell that dmg its to low. Dmg overall is way to high. What is yours fixation about dmg of tanks ? Tanks are not for dmg, they are to aborb dmg/utility/control. For U will be normal that dps can kill a tank ? So if he can kill a tank, how fast he can kill a dps or healer ? Now we have 5 sec pvp 1 vs 1 so Yours idea is 2 sec ? Right now we have arcade game not pvp. Who first clik win.

[lumpi33]

1. Are U play a healer ? If not dont tell that dmg its to low. Dmg overall is way to high. What is yours fixation about dmg of tanks ? Tanks are not for dmg, they are to aborb dmg/utility/control. For U will be normal that dps can kill a tank ? So if he can kill a tank, how fast he can kill a dps or healer ? Now we have 5 sec pvp 1 vs 1 so Yours idea is 2 sec ? Right now we have arcade game not pvp. Who first clik win.

What I was trying to say is that there are often situations where one side cannot kill targets of the other side because the pressure is too low. The less players there are the more often this occurrs. When there are only a few dps then it is very hard to take down a tank or a guarded target.

It's mostly the guard from tanks and the hots/absorbs/heals from healers that makes it so hard to kill certain targets. Even the used to be squishy targets like cloth or light wearing armor classes can be very hard to take down when in end gear with lots of -crit, heals, absorbs, guard, potions, etc.

There are more and more rr80 players. With the crests changes also more and more sov players. Defensive stuff is cheap and easy to get compared to all offensive stuff. e.g. there is parry III and disrupt/dodge III for only 10rr points each but there is not -parry III or -disrupt/dodge III for the same amount.

Survivability went up and up and up.

You can see that in ranked matches, in city matches and in wb vs wb guild matches where people barely die when they know what they are doing.

It's just frustrating when you are playing dps, throw everything you have at your target and their health barely moves. Whatever the reason is. It makes people quit.

I think that no crit on absorb mechanic makes no sense and should be changed. I also think that certain physical dps classes are too weak vs high armor targets. They barely damage them while other dps classes have no problems at all with them. That's two things that should be discussed because it depends a lot on which dps you get in the group and how many absorbs and guards you got.

The amount of balanced SC rounds needs to go up to keep people playing. Domination of either side is very bad.

[Caduceus]

I would be a lot more careful in drawing conclusions based on one-dimensional data, but the data is interesting nonetheless.

I think a lot of players will agree that RoR has some problem with one-sidedness. In my opinion it stems from something that I've tried to address many times over the years: the defensive safety net that groups provide.

It is simply too big, leading to a situation where brute force (gear, group comp, class balance, etc.) and not tactical finesse is what determines outcomes of fights.

It is problematic in competitive play (Ranked for example), but it sadly permeates through almost all of RoR.

In a nutshell, the defensive safety set makes it so that the instances where a player is truly at risk of dying in a 6-man are short and infrequent. The 6-man itself doesn't need to do much to accomplish this, so the chances of luring them into a tactical mistake are very small.

[lumpi33]

It is simply too big, leading to a situation where brute force (gear, group comp, class balance, etc.) and not tactical finesse is what determines outcomes of fights.

True.

[nocturnalguest]

There is no "no crit if absorb mechanic" fyi, you again trying to shoehorn numbers to support your wild claims that show you are pretty unfamiliar with game.

[lumpi33]

There is no "no crit if absorb mechanic" fyi, you again trying to shoehorn numbers to support your wild claims that show you are pretty unfamiliar with game.

As far as I know there is.

Another salty comment from your side without argumentation?

[Arre]

It would be interesting to see the stats for damage dealt/healing/protected/killed (order/destruction). If possible.
The fact that destruction dominates is very noticeable, many more players play for the side of destruction.
From the last weakly explained, played more than 30 SC Caledor on WP (healing) according to the total statistics of more than 15 SC, the order did not kill more than one opponent, despite the fact that about 5 were won.

[Detangler]

Why are you complaining about not being able to kill tanks? LIterally should always be the last thing you target unless they're at like 15% health or less.

Why are you complaining about tank damage differential? an extra 200 damage a hit is not going to make or break a kill. Order tanks definitely bring more utility compared to their counterparts. Please don't judge based on a single dimension.

No, the real culprit is that mdps is stronger than rdps, and order always has historically played too much rdps. Its even right there buried in your stats. Pug tanks generally don't stand in the back line and keep rdps safe, so they are free kills most times for anyone that gets a shot at them. mdps is way easier to guard and assist. That, coupled with the overabundance of pug rdps players that just tab and pew pew the closest thing next to them (i have spent a lot of time on my chosen with swift assist on whatever squishie dps I guard), and you realize that the rdps numbers absolutely will skew towards more losses. Back to point #1 - please stop targeting and trying to kill tanks!!