Patch Notes 22/12/2023

[Zxul]

..., got you.

No you didn't. How hard is it to understand that a class that has to raise two damage stats instead of one is having less points for defensive stats?

You wont be able to run as physical damage dealer / sniper engi when you do not invest in weaponskill for more pierce. Magus can completely ignore that second weaponskill attribute without sacrificing anything.

Question is how much engi has to invest into second stat. Unless your goal is to snipe sov tanks, which is what you admitted in previous post. I posted the dmg calculation, its interesting that you haven't addressed it so far.

Did I also mention that engi is getting extra aa dmg out of it as well, which magus doesn't has at all?

Watch the video again and look how easy it is to kill SWs or Engis while they are doing almost no damage to the magus. That's how it is. Nothing of your theory crafting will change that.

Plz point me to exact time in the video which shows sws and engies being killed while doing almost no dmg to magus.

btw a full sov engi has around 200ish WS without investing anything in WS, not 300. Just as quick comparission: Maras were getting 50% armor pierce for free, equal to 700WS... Physical damage dealers without good armor piercing are screwed. Engi is in that boat.

And that engi probably does has some extra ws from weapons/jewelry. Not to mention, 100 ws is 7% armor pen- doesn't changes the equation all that much.

The thing that engi needs is a toggle to switch bullets to magical damage or a passive 15% pierce for guns. Then it would be roughly even.

Which makes it so great that engi already has those!

1. Middle tree- instant switch to magical dmg.
2. Passive 15% pierce for guns which magus doesn't has- Pierce Defenses tactic.
3. AA dmg which magus doesn't has- extra dmg compared to magus on top of those two.

[lumpi33]

..., got you.

No you didn't. How hard is it to understand that a class that has to raise two damage stats instead of one is having less points for defensive stats?

You wont be able to run as physical damage dealer / sniper engi when you do not invest in weaponskill for more pierce. Magus can completely ignore that second weaponskill attribute without sacrificing anything.

Question is how much engi has to invest into second stat. Unless your goal is to snipe sov tanks, which is what you admitted in previous post. I posted the dmg calculation, its interesting that you haven't addressed it so far.

I haven't addressed your calculations because they are irrelevant. Mitigation is not the only factor for the output damage. Each ability has different damage values and scaling factors and the targets are also very different from archtype to archtype and side to side. Whether you have a damage boost like mara/SW or a heal debuff is also a big factor. Beside that a physical damage dealers is facing much higher mitigations than a magical. Even cloth casters like RP or magus can have 80% physical mitigation. Tanks can overcap it to around 120%. That's a lot more than what you get from resis. You can't stack resis that easily and you can't overcap it that way.

Engi gunner/sniper without investments into weaponskill is very very weak. It's just too easy to get armor with higher armor sets, talis and pots. The magical resistances stay pretty much the same. You can put in WS talis and take fightin chance tactic and renown WS but you gonna pay for it with a lot less survivability. You can look up any engi like Thorbolt (rr101) and will see that he has WS in the armor when he plays sniper. He wouldn't give up the survivability if he wouldn't have to.

Did I also mention that engi is getting extra aa dmg out of it as well, which magus doesn't has at all?

It gives some extra damage, not during casting/channeling though. However, what matters is the damage output. Again, when engi skill damage + aa is less than magus skill damage without aa, then how good is aa? The Indigo Fire of Change channel for example is a hell of a good ability. Not comparable with the focused fire.

Watch the video again and look how easy it is to kill SWs or Engis while they are doing almost no damage to the magus. That's how it is. Nothing of your theory crafting will change that.

Plz point me to exact time in the video which shows sws and engies being killed while doing almost no dmg to magus.

1:34 easy BW kill, almost all health left
2:20 SW kill with 50% health left
3:30 SW kill with 80% health left
4:50 SW kill with 40% health left
5:55 easy Engi kill
8:05 easy SM kill

Id argue that if you barely lose 50% health than it's a pretty easy fight and he had a lot of health an potions left to keep going. If he had burned 2 health potions, 1 absorb and his Aegis and barely survived then it would have been a close fight. Most opponents are super easy for magus. He just melts their faces. No engi is close to that.

And that engi probably does has some extra ws from weapons/jewelry. Not to mention, 100 ws is 7% armor pen- doesn't changes the equation all that much.

Bloodlord and Genesis have no WS. The fortress weapon has 23 and the sent ring 17. So you can add 40WS fully equipped with full sov, 2x genesis, 1x sent, BL and fortress. That doesn't change much.

The thing that engi needs is a toggle to switch bullets to magical damage or a passive 15% pierce for guns. Then it would be roughly even.

Which makes it so great that engi already has those!

1. Middle tree- instant switch to magical dmg.
2. Passive 15% pierce for guns which magus doesn't has- Pierce Defenses tactic.
3. AA dmg which magus doesn't has- extra dmg compared to magus on top of those two.

@1. The middle tree is an aoe fluff tree. Useless for single target. The grenades are pretty weak and don't have much range.
@2. I meant 15% armor piering as passive, not 15% defense pierce.
@3. Yeah, as I said... btw. their pink pets get more contribution from main stat and have higher damage.

Theory crafting is all nice and fun but there are too many variables. Engis are just not performing well and people who play Engi and Magus know that Magus is the better class, in damage and survivability. Both have their issues though in orvr warband play due to their lacking mobility, weak class mechanic, weak group utility and slow casts.

[lumpi33]

No you didn't. How hard is it to understand that a class that has to raise two damage stats instead of one is having less points for defensive stats?
...

This is the case for like every physical damage classes (SL, Choppa, Mara, WH, WE, SH, SW, ...). And, that's totally fine. Each class has their strength and weakness.

His question was why magus has more survivability than engineers. They clearly have more because they don't have to raise the second weaponskill attribute. Therefore a magus and engi are not in the same boat in their sniper spec. They have different abilities, different damage types, different stat distribution. Magus clearly wins in survivability due to having more points to spend there and also in damage output due to having magical damage and facing less mitigation.

Sure, every physical damage class has this issue but only on quick first look. If you take a closer look you will notice that there are a lot of differences that determine their performance. Overall destro has more survivability.

- Mara has the ignore armor pierce aoe stance, aoe kd, self hot, a lot of tough, good armor piercing and more procs with dual wield.
- WE can ignore ws/str and go full deftard with their 600 absorb and still do okish damage.
- SHs can go very tanky in mSH aoe build while SWs in aoe have to stand close without any armor buffs. SH has also kaboom and self knock back to get out while no other class with pounce has that.
- Choppas have the m1 bubble of AMs and wounds tactic, giving them more tools to survive burst than slayers.
- BGs have the self heal m1 which is unique to tanks
- Chosen/BOs have the shield channels
- Shamans have dual hotting with strong toughness buff, access to auto detaunt tactic and run away.

You wonder why destro is winning almost every LotD? Well read again. Order has to rely on damage output and killing fast. In lotd with the debuff the destro defense stuff is amplified making them a lot harder to kill. Just think about a guarded Mara for example. With their armor pierce ignore in aoe stance they are already hard to kill without the lotd debuff. Add the debuff and he becomes close to unkillable for order. All you have to do as destro is stack enough melees to be able to kill enemies while having huge survivability. Same with shamans double hots. Heal is being debuffed but not their strong toughness buff. Order doesn't have that buff and doesn't have the auto detaunt or run away either, making shamans a lot tougher to kill than AMs.

They should get rid of that lotd debuff mechanic. It brings a lot of new imbalances and orvr is working without that debuff as well. Destro winning 90% of lotd rounds is no coincidence. It's the amplified survivability they get there.

[Nameless]

Rampage nullify all tanks defences and they fall much faster than their counterparts. So the myth about destro being tough is not really true.
Destro win lotd cos strong pull capabilities and relatively open space. Now pulls are nerfed (like they should be) but slayer aoe pressure is kinda the same so like we saw with last lotd destro winrate will drop significantly not only at lotd but at orvr as well

[Kloaner]

. Order doesn't have that buff and doesn't have the auto detaunt or run away either, making shamans a lot tougher to kill than AMs.

and they always have 20 tactic slots, so they can take everything! But pls don't tell anyone! Otherwise Max will nerf them

[lumpi33]

Rampage nullify all tanks defences and they fall much faster than their counterparts. So the myth about destro being tough is not really true.
Destro win lotd cos strong pull capabilities and relatively open space. Now pulls are nerfed (like they should be) but slayer aoe pressure is kinda the same so like we saw with last lotd destro winrate will drop significantly not only at lotd but at orvr as well

So you are saying that 1 class out of 12 having a pierce defense buff for a short amount of time that can be removed is an issue but all destro classes being more tanky than their mirror is not? Ok then, let's trust this random forum poster then. Everything is fine.

[Nameless]

Rampage nullify all tanks defences and they fall much faster than their counterparts. So the myth about destro being tough is not really true.
Destro win lotd cos strong pull capabilities and relatively open space. Now pulls are nerfed (like they should be) but slayer aoe pressure is kinda the same so like we saw with last lotd destro winrate will drop significantly not only at lotd but at orvr as well

So you are saying that 1 class out of 12 having a pierce defense buff for a short amount of time that can be removed is an issue but all destro classes being more tanky than their mirror is not? Ok then, let's trust this random forum poster then. Everything is fine.

Finally some wise words from you.

[ravezaar]

Slayer aoe pressure isnt the same, with Fierceness nerf or "fixed" its a big drop in dps. And the fact Des use rampage as an excuse still is kinda sad. Wish we could get WaR Des back again, they got killz without excuses

[Zxul]

I haven't addressed your calculations because they are irrelevant. Mitigation is not the only factor for the output damage. Each ability has different damage values and scaling factors and the targets are also very different from archtype to archtype and side to side. Whether you have a damage boost like mara/SW or a heal debuff is also a big factor. Beside that a physical damage dealers is facing much higher mitigations than a magical. Even cloth casters like RP or magus can have 80% physical mitigation. Tanks can overcap it to around 120%. That's a lot more than what you get from resis. You can't stack resis that easily and you can't overcap it that way.

And yet no matter how abilities scale, armor mitigates dmg the same- each 44 armor at lvl 40 mitigates 1% dmg, no matter how the abilities scales etc. And what heal debuffs have to do with comparing engi and magus, when both don't have heal debuffs? As for 80% physical mitigation on cloth wearer, 80% mitigation takes 3520 armor- on magus that means putting armor tali into every slot available, meaning no ontel or toughness.

Stop avoiding the question- you keep whining about physical dmg, I made the calculation that shows that your "have to slot ws everywhere" is only true if you are trying to snipe sov tanks, so far you posted a 9999 excuses to avoid replying to it.

Engi gunner/sniper without investments into weaponskill is very very weak. It's just too easy to get armor with higher armor sets, talis and pots. The magical resistances stay pretty much the same. You can put in WS talis and take fightin chance tactic and renown WS but you gonna pay for it with a lot less survivability. You can look up any engi like Thorbolt (rr101) and will see that he has WS in the armor when he plays sniper. He wouldn't give up the survivability if he wouldn't have to.

Actually no, it is very easy to get higher resists- Winds set which gives extra 200 all resists is available before 40, there are several classes which buff resists by a much higher % than any armor buff buffs armor, then there is +360 liniment. That's while raising armor takes tali slots.

1:34 easy BW kill, almost all health left
2:20 SW kill with 50% health left
3:30 SW kill with 80% health left
4:50 SW kill with 40% health left
5:55 easy Engi kill
8:05 easy SM kill

Id argue that if you barely lose 50% health than it's a pretty easy fight and he had a lot of health an potions left to keep going. If he had burned 2 health potions, 1 absorb and his Aegis and barely survived then it would have been a close fight. Most opponents are super easy for magus. He just melts their faces. No engi is close to that.

1:34 bw/sorc not good at soloing, especially when no investing into wounds, news at 11.
2:20 ranged spec sw which doesn't uses los, and which goes into melee range for some reason.
3:30 same.
4:50 same, and the sw even had that nice stone pile right next to him. Its also interesting that despite being ranged non of the 3 sws used Festering- the best Scout ability, and the main reason to go for sw ranged spec.
5:55 magus with daemon up and full stacks, runs into an engi which doesn't uses a turret lol. Not to mention things like not using Keg, or having almost no ele resistance despite having a self buff for it lol.
8:05 during that entire fight the sm didn't disrupt a single ability. Speccing tank as a glass cannon has consequences lol.

Most opponents which don't know what they are doing are indeed very easy for magus. So are they for every other class.

@1. The middle tree is an aoe fluff tree. Useless for single target. The grenades are pretty weak and don't have much range.

That's interesting, considering you mentioned that engi and magus middle tree are very similar, and considering that on my magus I solo roam with main middle tree, and kill single targets with it very fine.

@2. I meant 15% armor piering as passive, not 15% defense pierce.

15% extra dmg is 15% extra dmg.

Theory crafting is all nice and fun but there are too many variables. Engis are just not performing well and people who play Engi and Magus know that Magus is the better class, in damage and survivability. Both have their issues though in orvr warband play due to their lacking mobility, weak class mechanic, weak group utility and slow casts.

Theory crafting is indeed all nice and fun, when so far you based your entire posts on not knowing how armor mitigation works, on video about people who don't know how to spec/play losing to magus, and about not even knowing what engi trees are good for what LOL.

[oaliaen]

Slayer aoe pressure isnt the same, with Fierceness nerf or "fixed" its a big drop in dps. And the fact Des use rampage as an excuse still is kinda sad. Wish we could get WaR Des back again, they got killz without excuses

Of course every class got weaker but sl keeps stronger comparing to his mirror, slayer can still break defenses of des tanks..