[Eng/Magus] Sticky Bombs / Seed of Chaos

[Grunbag]

I don't understand why Napalm was mentioned as well. Stick to discussing Sticky bomb/SoC.

Does sticky bomb/SoC have to change in the same way , or it could become two differents abilities ?
Obviously magus and engineer dont have the dama mid tree and the same build for those 2 abilities .

[Penril]

I don't understand why Napalm was mentioned as well. Stick to discussing Sticky bomb/SoC.

Does sticky bomb/SoC have to change in the same way , or it could become two differents abilities ?
Obviously magus and engineer dont have the dama mid tree and the same build for those 2 abilities .

We don't have identical mirrors in the game, so i see no reason why these skills can't be changed in different ways.

[Grunbag]

I don't understand why Napalm was mentioned as well. Stick to discussing Sticky bomb/SoC.

Does sticky bomb/SoC have to change in the same way , or it could become two differents abilities ?
Obviously magus and engineer dont have the dama mid tree and the same build for those 2 abilities .

We don't have identicall mirrors in the game, so i see no reason why these skills can't be changed in different ways.

Ok good ! I realize magus/engineer have only few abilities mirrored but the gameplay is really different .

With recent range nerf , i d see no reason to not give a heal debuff to magus (if order really have one more than destruction) if it could help realm balance , and gives something like Nitroglycerin grenade (close to Karasts OP) to engineer .

If ever it is possible to change / bring back those abilities yet ?

[Penril]

I suggest keeping heal debuffs out of this thread and making a new proposal for it. Giving these classes a heal debuff would be a pretty big change that deserves its own discussion.

[footpatrol2]

What is the stance on the balance forums to warrant change? If a proposal makes it to discussions is it guilty until proven innocent or Innocent until proven guilty?

[Osred]

Concidering the Keg and range nerf I'd imagine client control being soon. That also means that changing the skills or swapping them out entirely is also being considered by Az.

He did mention he wants to do changes which cant be done till client control, yet nerfed keg and range in preperation for it. Nitroglyceryn Grenade as a replacement for Sticky bomb seems entirely possible now at least the way I'm seeing this.

[Penril]

What is the stance on the balance forums to warrant change? If a proposal makes it to discussions is it guilty until proven innocent or Innocent until proven guilty?

I move proposals that I consider worth discussing and follow the rules/format, regardless of whether I agree with them or not. Just because I move something does not make it "guilty" or "innocent". It is up to the community to discuss and debunk each other.

[footpatrol2]

What is the stance on the balance forums to warrant change? If a proposal makes it to discussions is it guilty until proven innocent or Innocent until proven guilty?

I move proposals that I consider worth discussing and follow the rules/format, regardless of whether I agree with them or not. Just because I move something does not make it "guilty" or "innocent". It is up to the community to discuss and debunk each other.

Ok I don't think this ability needs a new concept ability. Maybe the damage portion can be slightly increased if at all. But I don't think a completely new concept ability should be implemented as it is not needed. I like SoC and sticky bombs as they are and as a concept. I think they are great concept abilities. I haven't seen a argument yet that i agree with to take away this concept ability and introduce a completely new concept ability.

In my opinion you REALLY have to have something that is REALLY broken enough to introduce a new a concept ability. These abilities are not broken and at most need a small damage tweak. Thats my opinion.

[Grunbag]

It's not broken , it's useless : maybe for magus it's a bit different cause mid path is not a aoe tree .

But take a look at engineer : why would you spend mastery points in sticky bomb to have a weak ST dot , when you're supposed to do aoe damage by choosing this tree ?
It actually a waste of Gcd and waste of ap to use this ability . Only the end explosion would worth something , but it is too low and long to proc (if it ever do) that why karast made that proposal .
But I agree if you feel that for magus path we should keep SOC as it is and just increase damage , while on the other side engineer need some aoe to add in the rotation .
Like penril said , we don't have to change the ability both in the same way

[footpatrol2]

Engineers and magus's operate roughly the same with minor differences. You string in single target damage within your AoE damage. This cloaks your focus. Sticky bombz is also corporeal damage and its damage type is debuffed by acid bomb. Sticky bombz goes on your groups single target assist.

Not everything in the grenadier spec needs to be AoE. Stating because its not a purely AoE ability is a weak argument. Most classes don't have all their abilities purely tied to a tree that is just dedicated to purely AoE. There is a mix of AoE and ST. Grenadier is no different and shouldn't be different. Sticky bomb which has a AoE component is part of that.

You stated its a weak dot. Then increase the damage of the dot like I stated. I don't think a new concept should be introduced. We can respectfully disagree. It is possible.

To provide background, I ran groups based on the engineer in a 12 man setting for roughly 2 years straight if not even more time. The engineer/magus are the showcase players in the group. If you don't build around them then they will do terrible. Similarily to if you don't build your group around a choppa they will do terrible. The engineer/magus define the playstyle.

Magus/engineer's need serious AP feeds to make them shine. You can build abundantly fed AP feed groups in this game, to the point that the magus/engineer will never run out of ap. So there really is no waste of AP either. If your in a AP feed group, you have a problem of spending all your AP.