[RP] Grimnir's Fury

[lefze]

So... I disagree with the proposal.

For one it completely overhaul's the entire ability when this ability is extremely powerful and unique. This ability is an AMAZING concept ability. That doesn't mean it shouldn't get some love or massaged a little. But the proposal is completely throwing the concept away.

Grimnir's Fury is the only ability in the game that is meant to recover from a wipe situation... aka morale bomb. This is on a class that can self rez... Can it be any more obvious... Other game effects that do this are done with morale 4's alter fate which doesn't get seen in this game... for reason's. The ability is on the same power level as a morale 4... on a server that doesn't let you see morale 4's... You build around the use of this ability in a warband setting.

If you can't be bothered to build around the use of this ability that is the warband creator/coordinater/organizer's fault to not make use of an amazing tool. If player's don't see the value here then I question wtf you actually know about this game and how far you have gone with it.

Here's some other, in my opinion, better options if you were to change grimnir's fury. Pick one, or a combination.
Decreasing the cast time.
Decreasing the cooldown.
Increase the affect range.
Make it work outside of group to a max of 9 player's.
Make caster invulnerable to damage while casting grimnir's fury but can be interrupted. Cooldown starts at cast start and not on completion of cast so you don't just juke and get on demand invulnerability, indefinitely.

I am shocked that you guys would want to take this concept ability away from order's toolkit, especially given how powerful it is.
This is a morale bomb recovery ability.

Alter fate doesn't work at all, it's bugged. As for grimnirs fury, I would say buffing it can easily break stuff, it needs to be as inconvenient as it is to not be broken. Kind of the same idea they had about WP wounds buff when they reduced the range to 30ft, only that grimnirs fury would be significantly stronger if tweaked as you suggested.

So the right thing to do is to remake it.

[footpatrol2]

Spoiler:

Completely overhaul the concept ability and introduce a new ability in it's place?

Ya I don't agree with this.

Btw dans if any average joe player put up a proposal like you did with this one, it would have got turned down due to lack of content and explanation. Your reason's are not good enough to warrant your proposal to be pushed through.

The only reason why this proposal got pushed through is because you pushed it through. Tell me otherwise.

Not appropriate for the balance forums. Discuss the proposal or don't. Attacking balance mods for pushing their own proposal is a good way to get removed. You might want to keep in mind they're not actually making balance changes.

- wargrimnir

[Landgoat]

I don't agree with the proposal changes.

I agree basically with what roadkillrobin, glorian and footpatrol posts said. It has good utility for wipes, I don't see any issue with Grimnir's Fury as is, certainly don't like the idea of reworking the ability completely from what is was naturally.

[dansari]

I don't agree with the proposal changes.

I agree basically with what roadkillrobin, glorian and footpatrol posts said. It has good utility for wipes, I don't see any issue with Grimnir's Fury as is, certainly don't like the idea of reworking the ability completely from what is was naturally.

You see viability in an ability you need to spend 14 points for, just so you have the off chance of getting off a 5s cast without being interrupted via Taunt, punt, or knockdown, to rez groupmates within an area that is effectively guard range, so that you can theoretically turn the tide of a fight? Even under perfect circumstances, with FM and your 50% damage reduction running, I disagree heavily with that viewpoint. I don't think this ability would be out of line at all, given you provide it enough counterplay (of which Winds has zero that I can see unless you're already immune to knockbacks). Again, within what is effectively guard range, you're presented with a pulsing root. How many people can you actually lock down (for 1s on, .5-1s off)? At max, 9, with the way I envision it working, and unless you're catching out an entire backline of casters, most of those would be tanks. Do you disagree? RP has no realistic way of countering slows (you can cleanse some, but not all) outside of FM, nor do they have any movement speed increasers. Grimnir's Fury is an unused ability that sits at the top of a tree - we move proposals that seek to fix abilities you need to invest in all the time.

[roadkillrobin]

I think looking into how you could make the group ress function a little better. As it's a really great tool to counter pre built morale pushes. Be it range or cast time or maybe both. Or I have another sugestion.

"Ressurects all fallen groupmembers within 30 feet and does not cause Ressurection Sickness. Anyone ressurected by this effect regain 50% of their hitpoints and gain 1600 points of morale"

[Dabbart]

Spoiler:

@Dansari: WoI has the same counter-plays I illustrated in my first post. AP drains, some CCs(KD, Punt, Pull, Silence). As most Zs would continue to cast during the WoI, AP draining(I don't mean AM/Sham drains in particular, any AP reduction/steal ability works) would probably be the most efficient, as you can't guarantee immunities. And, as previously stated, with your 50% damage reduction, you gain -25% AP costs as well. But this would be literally be blowing most of your long CD abilities. And unlike WoI, you can stay in melee attack range of the RP during the entire cast to get off whichever counterplay you wish to utilize.

Also a major difference between WoI and this ability is that this ability would NOT be interrupting people. WoI is vicious as each time you get KBd and each time you land it interrupts a cast. So if you get stuck against a wall, you're basically boned for any abilities with CT until the end of the cast(nevermind getting caught between 2 Zs using WoI...) Also, as roots can be broken, getting stuck under oil is slightly less brutal than WoI, as well as Postern issues(I know you can't use posterns while KDd anymore, I dunno about rooted, but either way spam click the door and as soon as you break root you are in, being KBd repeatedly removes your ability to get inside 100%).

I mention these to attempt to illustrate that the proposed ability would in fact be "weaker" than WoI. Obviously, other than the immunity/undefendable portion.

Sorry for tangent/appeal to mirror, just wish to clarify the comparisons we are making.

Other than anecdotal evidence of a few very particular times that Grimnar's Fury has "worked", is there anyone who uses it regularly? Would increasing the range or decreasing CT make the ability worth taking without making it utterly broken? Rezzing all party members within 75-100ft with no LoS conditions is OP AF. Even the broken M4 would only rezz in a 30ft range.

Other than Bitterstone(IE racial WBs, not a dig in anyway), at what point would specing for Grimnar's Fury be preferable to simply bringing an AM with insta rezz and putting it in the group with a SM(you can put the Self Rezz rune on the AM remember...)

Lastly, a quick question. How many of those that are offering suggestions or alternatives for how to "fix" Grimnar's Fury have had a RP 40/40? IE have actual experience playing a RP and attempted to ever use this ability. I no longer have a RP(it went the way of my SW/WH/KotBS/AM(first)/WP/Z/BO/WE when I left the server for awhile). Just a question, not a dig. But that is something you should state, just to provide context.

Edit: If Grimnar's was changed to instant/long range, am I the only one that forsee's a dramatic increase in Order Suicide leaps? IE DW leaping from PvE zone right ontop of keep, self rezz, quick rezz your entire group and bam. Sure, you can do that now technically, but 5s cast(dying removes all morale) and 30ft range makes it difficult to pull off atm.

[footpatrol2]

So I'm not saying that grimnir's fury doesn't need some slight modification but your proposal is completely throwing away a great concept ability for more cc which is mirror pushing.

Example:
If you decrease the cast time to say 2 sec's and increase the affect range to 50ft. I think that concept ability could work. Play around with cast time's and affect ranges.

Maybe make the cast time 1 sec. Maybe make it instant and keep the affect range 30ft. I dunno.

Your proposal is completely throwing the concept ability away without even addressing the issue's with grimnir's fury and just saying it's bad...jus cause... When it's pretty obvious that the ability isn't bad it just needs tweaking.

[Dabbart]

Spoiler:

So I'm not saying that grimnir's fury doesn't need some slight modification but your proposal is completely throwing away a great concept ability for more cc which is mirror pushing.

Example:
If you decrease the cast time to say 2 sec's and increase the affect range to 50ft. I think that concept ability could work. Play around with cast time's and affect ranges.

Maybe make the cast time 1 sec. Maybe make it instant and keep the affect range 30ft. I dunno.

Your proposal is completely throwing the concept ability away without even addressing the issue's with grimnir's fury and just saying it's bad...jus cause... When it's pretty obvious that the ability isn't bad it just needs tweaking.

Doesn't that logic apply to every Proposal that seeks to replace an ability/tactic/morale however? Interested in your opinion here. What would be your prerequisite for replacing vs. "fixing"? Also, just something to take into account, I see that a lot of the proposal's you have made use the logic, "this is lackluster and no one slots it" as the reasoning for a proposed change(Point out here, you tend to wish to fix the ability/tactic not replace it with something entirely different however, so points there), so giving Dan flak for saying it's bad, "just cause" is a little hypocritical. We know why GF is bad, it's been well stated why it is in this thread.

For the record, This might not be the place for a discussion on replace vs fix, but as this has become a very prevalent portion of this proposal, and multiple players are using it as an argument against the proposed change, it actually might be a good starting position. Please delete if you feel this is too much of a derailment or 1-1 convo.

[lefze]

So I'm not saying that grimnir's fury doesn't need some slight modification but your proposal is completely throwing away a great concept ability for more cc which is mirror pushing.

Example:
If you decrease the cast time to say 2 sec's and increase the affect range to 50ft. I think that concept ability could work. Play around with cast time's and affect ranges.

Maybe make the cast time 1 sec. Maybe make it instant and keep the affect range 30ft. I dunno.

Your proposal is completely throwing the concept ability away without even addressing the issue's with grimnir's fury and just saying it's bad...jus cause... When it's pretty obvious that the ability isn't bad it just needs tweaking.

I'm gonna repeat myself here, and say that a tweak like that would be broken as ****. You can't buff the ability as the downsides it has are there for good reason. Do you really want a 50ft AoE ress that is on a 1 second cast with FM, combined with RP being the best healer in the game and present in any optimal party?

[dansari]

Spoiler:

So I'm not saying that grimnir's fury doesn't need some slight modification but your proposal is completely throwing away a great concept ability for more cc which is mirror pushing.

Example:
If you decrease the cast time to say 2 sec's and increase the affect range to 50ft. I think that concept ability could work. Play around with cast time's and affect ranges.

Maybe make the cast time 1 sec. Maybe make it instant and keep the affect range 30ft. I dunno.

Your proposal is completely throwing the concept ability away without even addressing the issue's with grimnir's fury and just saying it's bad...jus cause... When it's pretty obvious that the ability isn't bad it just needs tweaking.

Fair point. But then you get into the territory of.. what is effective is broken and what is impractical is useless. I acknowledge that its purpose is to recover after morale dumps, but if you're not taken out with the morale dump and subsequent push that comes after, how realistic is it to get off the AOE rez? I respect that you want to save the ability because of its uniqueness, but I think anything that's done would either be too much or not enough (likely the latter).