[AM/Sham] Asuryan and Gork Trees [Close Date Aug 14]

[ToXoS]

First, let me say that I don't have an AM toon.
But AM Dissipating Energies doesn't seem like a good ability for a 13 points investment in the DPS tree, and I can understand the need to change it.

However, I have 40/40+ Shaman, and even if I recently respec'ed it into a healer, I was playing it as a DPS from rank 1 to 40. That was before the avoidance changes, which sent the DPS Shaman into oblivion.
Anyway, my point is that Shaman 13 points ability (Da Waaagh! is Coming) is actually a good ability that every DPS Shaman take.
Indeed, with this ability, Shaman can create good burst by first applying dots (usually 2 or 3), then using Brain bursta + Da Waaagh is Coming + Bunch of waaagh.
Hence why I don't understand why you guys wanna change it.

[live4treasure]

Da Waagh is Coming doesn't do any more damage than brain buster tho, they're almost equal, so I don't see why you would use it in a single target scenario over just another brain busta that with tactic also acts as morale drain and toughness debuff or just big waagh before bunch of waagh. It's useful in large scale only, albeit even then, not terribly so. You will instead get an actual good single target ability, and there is also a slight possibility that our 15 point one will be changed for a solid aoe option, although that one is up for the Powers that Be, as dansari once called it lol, to decide.

[Lordeh]

Spoiler:

I actually stopped playing because of the changes to "Fury of the Green" and I`ll take that" and created toons on the Apoc server as a knee jerk reaction, but as somebody pointed out I didn`t say why its a bad idea...so here goes

Just for Info I use to play the Shaman.... Totom

Then

Shaman use to have 3 trees

1 x heal (scales with willpower)
1 x Direct damage (scales with INT and is fairly Bland)
1 x Utility, damage and Vamp (damage returned as a heal) healing (scales with INT)

AB mode came along and the Green tree became very good for both heals and DPS shammies (probably to good for the healing shammies). Thea reason is simple is that it could be used by both , the damage potion scaled with INT and the heals potion scaled with willpower.

When AB was removed it left 2 things behind

1. Fury of the green was still a group heal but based on 150% of the total damage done...although the range was very iffy about 40ft
2. I`ll take that could be cast on the move as long as you had healing points.

So the best Sharman group and dps build became something like this

RoR.builders - Shaman

It allowed a huge amount of extra healing in group situations, great utility and not pretty good damage as well as silences, heal debuffs, and extra group damage in the form of ere we go

Now

2 spells in the green tree "fury of the green and I`ll take that" scale with willpower on both the damage and heal potion of the spell.

The rest of the Green tree (all other abilities scale with INT.....so in a single tree you have 2 completely different gear requirements willpower or INT based

So the choice is to be a healer (using willpower) with a couple of gimmick spells in the green tree, but unable to use the rest of the abilites as they scale with INT

or

A DPS using (Intelligence) with that is totally gimped...no dps is ever going to use a 2 second cast with a base damage of less than 200 before mitigation

Solution

By all means allow the heal potion of ill take that and fury of the green to scale with willpower....but leave the damage potion to scale with the rest of the tree with Intelligence

Balance forum rules still apply, and this topic is about Asuryan/Gork, not Vaul/Da Green - Azarael

[live4treasure]

Man, make a different proposal. This is way too far off-topic.

[ToXoS]

Da Waagh is Coming doesn't do any more damage than brain buster tho, they're almost equal, so I don't see why you would use it in a single target scenario over just another brain busta that with tactic also acts as morale drain and toughness debuff or just big waagh before bunch of waagh. It's useful in large scale only, albeit even then, not terribly so. You will instead get an actual good single target ability, and there is also a slight possibility that our 15 point one will be changed for a solid aoe option, although that one is up for the Powers that Be, as dansari once called it lol, to decide.

DWIC actually do more damage than BB. Don't ask me why, I have no idea.
Well, you use DWIC after 1 BB because DWIC has the perfect timing with BB flying time. When you throw a BB, the following DWIC lands on the same time than BB, and BOW also doesn't have a flying time, which result in a nice burst, far better than just spamming BB.
The toughness debuff tactic can be used with this rotation, you only need 1 BB to apply the debuff.
Big Waaagh is 65 fts only, like Fury of Asuryan, and hits a lot less than DWIC.
It's not useful in large scale only, it works wonder on a ST burst rotation.
I know you put Shaman in the thread with AM because apparently the 2 classes 13 points abilities on the DPS tree are going to change, but DPS shaman doesn't play like a DPS AM.
AM is all about dots and after the channel, and Shaman is about less dots and a good burst.

[live4treasure]

In that case, nothing much will change for shaman as the ability proposed by Aza will have a slow flying time which will allow it to reach the target at the same time as Brain Busta and have the additional effect of stripping blessings. It's a much better deal for ST burst

[ToXoS]

How so? How a slow flying time projectile can hits the same time as BB, which also has a flying time?
Anyway, DPS Shaman doesn't need to have DWIC changed, particularly when you know how wrecked the class already is.

[live4treasure]

If you say so man, I'm not claiming to be an expert on shaman or anything, but I would advise you to read the thread a little more carefully. The proposed ability seems superior to DWIC to me.

[dshdf]

Spoiler:

@dshdf The only damage based ability in Da Green tree is Bleed Fer Me, that's it. Lifetaps don't scale with intellect anymore and the damage per tick of Bleed Fer Me is the lowest of the dots and rightfully so. The lifetap tree at the moment shouldn't be regarded as a main tree for any build, unless you're looking to take Fury of Da Green, which is also a healing tool. Having Scuse me or not won't increase its damage much and won't increase its healing much, which is why changing it to dps tree really won't make a difference for healer, but will benefit dps sham much more. Arguably having ranged knockback is beneficial for healers, as they can now take it if they have an extra point lying around in their build and possibly use it for knocking people off rams in the keep or off the ramp near the lord or assist in morale bombing by knocking back healers in enemy wb backline at choice moments. It's a gimmicky ability, but it's still an option. There's no reason for it to be in the dps tree though, since it doesn't facilitate dps in any way.

get'n smarter is in da green tree too, which means that when you invest in da green you kinda boost your overall int stat(thats even more important since there is no disrupt striketrough for sham right now)
even if Bleed Fer me damage aint high shaman cant ignore it since right now am got 1 extra dot (9pt asuryan)
my main point is that sham dps unlike am totally aint tied to middle tree, just moving scuse me to Gork will not fix things,
also moving it will reduce heal shaman dps output with mechanic points (you will not be able to have silence and double resist debuff as a healer), while for AM it will be like "okay i cant have silence now, but scatter the winds is also nice"
I understand that for AM its insanely sweet to get resist debuff just passing by 5 pt in dps path. I understand that as DPS AM you barely want to invest points in Vaul(except resist debuff). But for sham situation is different
Also if heal sham/am want to have its only 5pt spell now, and on lvl 40 you even do not need to give up anything to skill it( right now you have a simple choise - invest into knockback or into silence).
Also i should point out that Dagreen/Vaul - utility paths based on debuffing your enemy, and since the main profit from Scuse me/Storm of Chronos is a debuff and not that 500 aoe dmg it perfectly suits its current path theme
TL:DR implementing proporsal without improving Gorks Barbs or moving Getin smarter into Gork will be boost for AM but not for Shaman

[live4treasure]

Then perhaps Gettin' Smarter should also be tied to the middle tree? It will be more beneficial to DPS sham that way, because you don't have to invest points into a tree that doesn't give you any dps boost.

P.S. I mean two shaman players have already stated that they don't want any changes to their class. This is your chance to make it better, viable and live up to what you want it to be. If you don't want any changes it's fine I guess, but I think you're going to miss out on an amazing opportunity.