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[AM/Sham] Asuryan and Gork Trees [Close Date Aug 14]

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dshdf
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Re: [AM/Sham] Asuryan and Gork Trees [Close Date Aug 14]

Post#21 » Tue Jul 31, 2018 5:15 pm

live4treasure wrote: Tue Jul 31, 2018 12:52 pm Then perhaps Gettin' Smarter should also be tied to the middle tree? It will be more beneficial to DPS sham that way, because you don't have to invest points into a tree that doesn't give you any dps boost.

P.S. I mean two shaman players have already stated that they don't want any changes to their class. This is your chance to make it better, viable and live up to what you want it to be. If you don't want any changes it's fine I guess, but I think you're going to miss out on an amazing opportunity.
it would be nice for sure, but there's nothing to move into path of da green atm. Even most obvious candidate - Ere we go tied to gork tree with 3pt tactic. Not sure such a big rewamp possible and needed atm.

Personally i want some changes for sham - some way to avoid disrupt, new 13pt in middle tree and upgrade of gorks barbs. AFAIK work in progress on every of them, so its more like standby mod

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Re: [AM/Sham] Asuryan and Gork Trees [Close Date Aug 14]

Post#22 » Tue Jul 31, 2018 5:25 pm

Gettin Smarter being a stat steal suits the Green tree more than dps tree. Scuse me should be moved to Gork as now its the only dps tree.
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peterthepan3
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Re: [AM/Sham] Asuryan and Gork Trees [Close Date Aug 14]

Post#23 » Tue Jul 31, 2018 5:30 pm

Worth mentioning that Shaman isn't as reliant on dots as AM is to do damage; his dd burst potential far exceeds that of an AM.
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live4treasure
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Re: [AM/Sham] Asuryan and Gork Trees [Close Date Aug 14]

Post#24 » Tue Jul 31, 2018 10:29 pm

Alright, so we did have a bit of a discussion among us and came to the conclusion that we really like the idea of the ability you had in mind, Aza. It's solid, useful, reinforces an interesting niche with making things harder for two of the three healing classes and has real potential to push DPS AM into viability.

After discussing, we think that 3s cast seems like it'll be too long to be useful. Shadow Warrior's Festering Arrow is a great example of this, and they even have a small boost to the range of this ability to make it easier to land, so we think that 2s would likely be reasonable. The range should most likely be 100 ft and it seems that an ability like this would necessitate some form of cooldown. Anywhere between 5s and 10s, depending on if you would want it to have powerful synergy with Swordmaster's Whispering Wind or not. It seems reasonable that the baseline damage of this ability should be higher than a basic radiant lance as it is 13 points high in the tree, although it's difficult to say by what amount. This would make this ability flexible and useful outside of just targeting enemies with blessings on them and also justify the cooldown a little more.

With this, the DPS AM rotation is enriched as you now have more options on how to deal damage. Maximum range damage dealing and burst has been increased, because you have an additional ability to use at 100 ft which, if I didn't misinterpret what was said earlier, will have a fly speed that will allow it to reach its target at the same time as Radiant Lance if cast one after the other. One the other hand, it's likely that when the DPS AM is at 65 feet, this ability will simply replace Radiant Lance as there will very rarely be an opportunity to cast two 2s cast abilities back to back before using a Fury of Asuryan into Searing Touch, and that's fine, honestly, as long as the ability is more powerful than a basic radiant lance, it's still an upgrade, and even when that isn't the case, should a DPS AM be provided the opportunity, the aforementioned slower fly speed will result in a rather sizeable portion of burst damage, much more dangerous than before, yet also longer to execute.

One nuance to take into account is the Dispell Magic tactic as said previously. If there are plans to implement a 15 point aoe ability, it is still a worthwhile tactic to have as it will have use in the form of synergy with the potential DPS AM/Sham aoe ability. However, if DPS AM/Sham will henceforth only have single target damage, it'll likely become an obsolete tactic. If changing it to something more useful would not be too much to ask for with all these changes, then we do have two possible suggestions that everyone seemed to agree with on some level. We're not entirely sure how these changes would effect the balance, but I thought it'd be best to simply mention them regardless.

The favorite replacement of everyone for Dispell Magic was a tactic that would decrease the channel time of Searing Touch/Bunch of Waagh from 6s to 4s, effectively making the damage ticks 30% faster. In my personal opinion, this is probably the more reasonable suggestion as it does not add to the immediate burst potential of the AM, but does increase the potential for his follow up damage to score a kill.

Failing that, something as simple as a mirror to true caster's +intellect tactic was also mentioned. A lot more simple and rough, of course. Not sure if this would break something or not personally, but we all agree that it would at least be beneficial for sure.

Of course, if either of these prove problematic and overtune DPS AM in some fashion, we simply hope that the tactic will be switched out for something useful and balanced at the same time according to your own thoughts and designs.

Cheers ^^
Giladar - rr 80 DPS AM

Dabbart
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Re: [AM/Sham] Asuryan and Gork Trees [Close Date Aug 14]

Post#25 » Tue Jul 31, 2018 10:56 pm

Forgive me for entering late and possibly restating something, but this thread seems to of taken a few turns... Correct me if incorrect, but this is the proposal:

1st; Swap AM/Sham 5pt middle tree AoE punt with 5pt right tree Cone Debuff.

2nd; Change the 13pt Middle Tree abilities to... Something. Either a channel, a Placement spell, a 1-2s cast that strips Blessings, or something something Profit.

In regards to 1st proposed change:
Spoiler:
Affects AMs more than Shams. Sham Puddle already Debuffs ele(and doesn't stack with 'Scuse Me!). This effectively removes AMs ability to self debuff an enemies Spirit resistance in heal/hybrid specs(note, I'd still prefer the Ini debuff..) Should also be mentioned, Destro with DoKs can group cleanse the Hex Storm of Chronos, but Order WP can't group cleanse the Ailment 'Scuse Me. Not a very large deal, but who can or can't group cleanse a particular Debuff is worth noting.

Honestly, the times you'd use the ranged AoE punt(and giving immunites in AoE) is about the same as a 65ft cone Debuff(that doesn't stack with 90% of Debuffs) both breaking Detaunts/stagger/root imo.

Question to AM/Sham players: Outside of close-bomb groups, punting enemies off Keep wall, Zerg Rushes, or when the enemy is 90% wiped, how often do you actually utilize either of these 5pt abilities? Personally, those are the only situations I really ever use em. I've never used either of these to actually impact the result of a battle. AoE punt has potential, but it's super situational and terrain dependant. We already have a close range AoE punt, and it's an Instant..

I'm not opposed to the change. I just don't see what it will really accomplish. I'd be more in favor of altering all 4 of these abilities to be something you might want to think about using in more general play. For instance, give Sham's an Ini Debuff. Maybe instead of an AoE KB, an AoE Interrupt(on long CD obviously). Random brainstorming here.

In Regards to the 2nd:
Spoiler:
Forgive me, but I feel like the 13pt Middle Tree ability needs it's own proposal, entirely seperate from the other class issues. That is strictly a DPS build/ability and needs to be addressed as such. The first proposal potentially affects all 3 spec types(heal/dps/hybrid). Just my thought, and that seems to be the case as this thread has devolved a bit...

I happen to like the 13pt abilities. The AM CD is too long(and bugged in that you can cast on any ally, not just grp member(or was, haven't played DPS AM in a long time), but the Sham version works quite well, especially when given a CD decreaser and Mork's Touch, it's an amazing Blessing/DPS ability. Good crits for over 1k+ on squishies, quick casts with Mechanic(and Stat bonus)... I've always loved in on my Sham. However, I would NOT be opposed to an AoE guaranteed Blessing removal spell.
In regards to all AM/Sham changes; I think we need more time with the changes we have before going crazy. It's only been a couple weeks with Life-taps, and I am not ready to say it is 100% balanced or working as intended yet(there is an open bug ticket about undefendable life-taps, if that get's "fixed" who knows how we will feel about them?). Just my opinion. I also only get to play a few days a week if I'm lucky...
Spoiler:
But then again, I'm not Good Enough to be one of those that is in the Conversation and Coming to Decisions along with Live4Treasure and whomever else that included.. (jk btw...)
Azarael wrote: It's only a nerf if you're bad.

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live4treasure
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Re: [AM/Sham] Asuryan and Gork Trees [Close Date Aug 14]

Post#26 » Tue Jul 31, 2018 11:16 pm

Aw man, don't take it that way :D This isn't some definitive decision making group, just a group of players that really wants to get this change to our favorite class right. We come up with suggestions and then I post them, and you're obviously invited to do the same, as that's the purpose of this thread.

The general direction of the thread is related to DPS AM/Sham specifically, and honestly, regarding Scuse Me and SoC, I use them quite often for the damage if not for anything else, but it comes in handy as a resistance shave as well. The reason I believe that moving it to the 5 point slot in the DPS tree won't be a negative effect for healers is because the only abilities that deal damage are in the Asuryan and Gork trees. I don't really see how a healer would benefit from shaving resistances in the first place, since it doesn't increase lifetaps in any significant way. On the other hand, if you're a healer and you wish to deal damage with tranquility empowered spells, then why shouldn't you have to invest at least something in the tree related to damage dealing?

The second part of the proposal was actually a 15 pt ability suggestion. The thread simply evolved to also include the upcoming 13 pt. change. Not going to speak for shaman, but at least within our little DPS AM illuminati conspiracy group, we universally agreed that Dissipating Energies would be a horrible ability even with a third of the cooldown and an instant cast time.
Giladar - rr 80 DPS AM

Dabbart
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Re: [AM/Sham] Asuryan and Gork Trees [Close Date Aug 14]

Post#27 » Tue Jul 31, 2018 11:28 pm

You missed the Jk part I guess. I couldn't care less mate:P Just thought it was strange how you worded that part about Coming to a Conclusion.

Decreasing resistances doesn't impact life taps... What? Life-taps damage is the same as the Debuff type... Debuff directly affects lifetap damage and thereby healing amount...

If you have the 5pt ability then you HAVE invested into the Tree. Exactly 6pts invested. If you also want the Silence that'd be 11pts invested. How much more is needed? (that is part of my 40/50 healing build btw)

If you're a healer and you have time to think about DPS, then you're group is currently smashing whomever they are fighting, and therefore it's largely irrelevant.

And Resis Debuffs affect all inc damage of that type, not just that coming from the Healer. But as I said, Sham's already have an AoE ele debuff. That is the AM's only one.

in regards to 2nd proposal: my bad. I misread. For the future, would it be possible to type out a basic TLDR breakdown of the changes? Cheers.

Edit: I understand that the purpose and intent of the proposal's is for DPS, but you HAVE to take the other specs into account for balance purposes. That's why WP/DoK DPS goodies require 2h... Nothing happens in a vacuum.
Azarael wrote: It's only a nerf if you're bad.

(see, I can shitpost too!)
Secrets wrote: Kindly adjust your attitude to actually help the community and do not impose your will on it. You aren't as powerful as you think.

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live4treasure
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Re: [AM/Sham] Asuryan and Gork Trees [Close Date Aug 14]

Post#28 » Wed Aug 01, 2018 3:35 am

I'm not sure if a healer am doing all of 20 or 30 more damage with his lifetaps can be considered a convincing argument tbh. It's absurd that you would frame it that way in one part of your post, but then say that "if you're a healer and you have time to think about dps, then your group is winning hard and it's irrelevant" in another. So if it's irrelevant and the effect this spirit debuff has on lifetapping is negligible, then pray tell, what exactly is the problem here?
Giladar - rr 80 DPS AM

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Re: [AM/Sham] Asuryan and Gork Trees [Close Date Aug 14]

Post#29 » Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:14 am

I agree with Dabbart about suggestion A. Energy of Vaul deals spirit damage. Your suggestion would effectively remove the spirit debuff from usual life leech build.

About Suggestion B part 1: Isn´t Dissipating Energies actually does this already?

About Suggestion B part 2: This would mean, that DPS AM has 2 snare puddles (especially when introduced together with Suggestion 1). Might be a bit overpowered.
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Dabbart
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Re: [AM/Sham] Asuryan and Gork Trees [Close Date Aug 14]

Post#30 » Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:16 am

I apologize if I came across as directly arguing against the proposed change, I am not. I did state in my first post that I am not against the change, I just don't see what it will accomplish. It'll give DPS AMs easier access to their spirit debuff, and mean that Heal/hybrid specs have a pretty much worthless AoE KB. That's about it.

Yes, as a healer DPS in general isn't a priority/care, yea, it's nice when your group is rolling, but if you are Healer, that's what you tend to be doing. But, as a Hybrid spec I think the Resist debuff is a larger deal(i wasn't clear on my 2nd post). I fail to see how this change would be a positive change for all specs as your OP claims. Does your OP logic on it not apply to Hybrid builds if it was changed? Namely that you have to off-spec in order to get a decent Debuff, again, for AMs since Shams already have a resis debuff.

I think I was quite clear in how I would like all 4 abilities reworked in my first post.

Or not. It really doesn't impact me much. I haven't seen these things brought up, and I believe that they should be taken into account. Like who can grp cleanse what, it isn't the largest deal in the world, but it should be taken into account. Because, DPS adds up, even if it's only a little per hit. There is a reason ICDs were added to Proc damage on this server.

I love the idea of 15pt abilities in general and await the chance to test out whatever is set out for it.
Azarael wrote: It's only a nerf if you're bad.

(see, I can shitpost too!)
Secrets wrote: Kindly adjust your attitude to actually help the community and do not impose your will on it. You aren't as powerful as you think.

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