Stat/Armor potions

[Mystry]

I personally think that armor potions should have been straight up removed from live, and should be removed from here.

Granted that my opinion is tainted by self-interest, but when a light armor class can reach 50% OR MORE physical damage reduction because of how insane potions are, its a huge problem. As most of these classes are ranged, it essentially removes their only vulnerability: melee players getting close and crunching them with physical damage.

This is especially prevalent on healers.

Having armor pots only leads to three bad things:
A. Healers become impossible to kill unless there are 4 or more players on them, as they have insane defenses (for a healer).
B. Anyone who doesn't have the money to bankroll armor pots turns into cannon fodder.
C. Aforementioned people who didn't get absurdly rich during the gold exploits in the past are basically forced into apothecary / cultivation, as none of the other tradeskills come EVEN CLOSE to how ridiculously powerful potions are.

TL;DR Remove armor pots entirely, keep other kinds of pots.

[templario]

I personally think that armor potions should have been straight up removed from live, and should be removed from here.

Granted that my opinion is tainted by self-interest, but when a light armor class can reach 50% OR MORE physical damage reduction because of how insane potions are, its a huge problem. As most of these classes are ranged, it essentially removes their only vulnerability: melee players getting close and crunching them with physical damage.

This is especially prevalent on healers.

Having armor pots only leads to three bad things:
A. Healers become impossible to kill unless there are 4 or more players on them, as they have insane defenses (for a healer).
B. Anyone who doesn't have the money to bankroll armor pots turns into cannon fodder.
C. Aforementioned people who didn't get absurdly rich during the gold exploits in the past are basically forced into apothecary / cultivation, as none of the other tradeskills come EVEN CLOSE to how ridiculously powerful potions are.

TL;DR Remove armor pots entirely, keep other kinds of pots.

Are you kidding me? Is this a joke? Remove armor potions but leave the rest like the strength potions you prob use?

COMMON!!!!!

I am not into changing potions but if so it MUST affect ALL potions not only the ones you are interested into.

[Bullen1995]

Light armor classes needs some love in general, For example the top Squig herder builds really trade some survival for Damage. And since the armor sets dont really provide much armor overall for light armor classes, Mobility builds are the only option. With the tactic (pick on yer own size) both Tougthness and armor are really low and standing still while melee chase you is not a option.

Without wanting to sound too facetious, I would argue being squishy to melee is the price you pay for using a build which 'trades survival for damage' on a class which can attack from 100f with a number of tools to maintain distance. As an mdps I'd love to be able to run a full offensive build but I'd be dead in seconds and never reach my target - I feel it's fairly balanced that way and I wouldn't expect to be able to have my cake and eat it.

Wouldn't an easy experiment be to half the value of all stat/armor (and maybe resist) pots and see how it plays out? That way just about every self/party buff (which I'm aware of) is superior to the pot but you can still cover any deadzones if you don't have the perfect party comp available to avoid people being pigeonholed. Plus is maintains the viability of apothecary and doesn't sound a hugely radical first experiment.

Maintaining distance with tools aint nothing when you get stunlocked by Wh's/OneShoted, pulled/jumped/two shoted by Wl's your candy atm for meleeS. Armory pots are again clearly needed if you even want a possibility to kite. And yes its a price to pay but it is quite heavy one.

[templario]

Many people complains about healers being demi-gods but they forget that many times they are guarded by tanks and seem impossible to kill.

WE and WH NEVER had issues killing healers even if they had armor potions, also WL and Mara are very good at it.

The use of armor potions its mitigated if a melee has strenght potions aswell.

Also almost EVERYONE at 40 has armor potions, tanks, melee, ranged and healers.

Everyone can have plenty of both potions levelling a char to t4 and farming materials, its not a gold issue instead a time and effort issue.

[templario]

Spoiler:

Guys this has never been an issue not In vanilla not now.

Devs are doing changes that mostly are fine and happy with them but I am afraid if we ask again and again for changes this game won´t be recognized anymore.

We and Wh are op (for healers) so nerf them
Tanks in T4 have so much cc and damage mitigation nerf now!!!
Dwarves racials are too op and so......

Please enjoy this wonderful game and less wining

This adds nothing to the thread, keep it relevant or refrain from posting

Edited by Ade

[Azarael]

Now, a 10%-13% buff to you physical defense for a blue 825 potions, is fairly equivalent in my mind to a +100 blue stat potion which would buff a main stat (1050) by about 10% too. Noting also that pretty much every physical dps can have an armor pen between 30% and 50%.

Let us consider Sundering Chop at about rank 38 as an example, with a 70 DPS weapon and 800 Str.

Base damage: 20 + (150 - 20) * (38/40) = 123
WDPS bonus: 70 * 1.5 = 105 -> 228
Strength bonus: (800/5) * 1.5 = 240 -> 468

Now we increase Str by 100:

Str bonus += 100/5 * 1.5 = 30

30 / 468 = 6%

Now let us consider armor. 660 armor pot at 40 provides 660 / (caster.Level * 44) * 0.4 = 15% mitigation, as you surmised.

However, the error here is in failing to account for the mechanism of armor.

If I have 0% armor, that additional +15% mitigation means that I am mitigating 15% more of the damage I would be taking without that potion.

If I have 50% armor, that additional +15% mitigation means that I am mitigating (15/50) = 30% of it instead.

This is why linear armor stacking is awful. With a linear effect like armor, the more you have of it, the more effective having still more of it becomes, and it's one of the problems that is rectified by % physical damage reduction.

WH/WE's main attack bypasses armor. So the damage from these attacks would be mitigated by the proposed changes where they are currently unaffected by armor pots. This isn't a big issue in general, but it will affect burst derived from Torment/AW crits.

Armor pots and buffs negate armor debuffs. If you are going to make the pots less effective for high armor classes, should you also consider making debuffs have lower values against high armor classes?

If required.

[templario]

Spoiler:

Guys this has never been an issue not In vanilla not now.

Devs are doing changes that mostly are fine and happy with them but I am afraid if we ask again and again for changes this game won´t be recognized anymore.

We and Wh are op (for healers) so nerf them
Tanks in T4 have so much cc and damage mitigation nerf now!!!
Dwarves racials are too op and so......

Please enjoy this wonderful game and less wining

This adds nothing to the thread, keep it relevant or refrain from posting

Edited by Ade

Spoiler:

Adds nothing to the thread????? Here we go again.... I am expressing my concern about a turmoil of changes that can modify a major crafting.

Your commentary surely adds nothing not mine.

Less censorship please I am well Into rules of conduct in this forum

Edited post had nothing to do with this thread, just a simple derail that if you read up on the rules of this subforum, is not allowed. Further derailment against the decision of staff and failing to understand the rules of this subforum. User has had his privilege to post in balance discussions removed.

-Edited by Ade

[Luth]

Complaints about staff exercising executive control over the direction of the game and performing experimentation PER SE WILL INVARIABLY be moderated.

Unsubstantiated criticism about the actual experimental changes being performed, in the form of unelaborated criticism, requests to remove, etc. WILL INVARIABLY BE MODERATED.

Constructive criticism about the actual experimental changes being performed IS COMPLETELY ENCOURAGED.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=17214

[Tesq]

I personally think that armor potions should have been straight up removed from live, and should be removed from here.

Granted that my opinion is tainted by self-interest, but when a light armor class can reach 50% OR MORE physical damage reduction because of how insane potions are, its a huge problem. As most of these classes are ranged, it essentially removes their only vulnerability: melee players getting close and crunching them with physical damage.

This is especially prevalent on healers.

Having armor pots only leads to three bad things:
A. Healers become impossible to kill unless there are 4 or more players on them, as they have insane defenses (for a healer).
B. Anyone who doesn't have the money to bankroll armor pots turns into cannon fodder.
C. Aforementioned people who didn't get absurdly rich during the gold exploits in the past are basically forced into apothecary / cultivation, as none of the other tradeskills come EVEN CLOSE to how ridiculously powerful potions are.

TL;DR Remove armor pots entirely, keep other kinds of pots.

this is a pure misconception, magic caster ingore amor, 1 melee ingore amor, every other dd ingore 50% of your armor plus an armor debuff. At the end fo the day you have 20-25% armor reduction which is exatly in line with a light armor. And dosen't even work vs all source of damages. A 660 armor pot give you like a 10% armor reduction which is cut half by armor ingore to a 5%.

[Redsun]

This proposal about converting armor potions to % physical damage reduced is the only really interesting idea.
If with this way the light armor classes get some needed help and the higher armor stackers are toned down it would be great.

Some people forget the absurd armor debuffs that were never intended for this version (cap/gear up to rr80) of the game that we play now! Light armor classes are already doomed without armor talis and high armor pots and they still want to nerf pots even for them.