Stat/Armor potions

[Luth]

Armor debuff values can be easily adjusted, this doesn't hinder any changes to the general potion handling, which is the topic about.

[Tesq]

a pysical damages reduction will kill we/wh burst and will probably make most of def tank unkillable against melee

[Eathisword]

Spoiler:

Let us consider Sundering Chop at about rank 38 as an example, with a 70 DPS weapon and 800 Str.

Base damage: 20 + (150 - 20) * (38/40) = 123
WDPS bonus: 70 * 1.5 = 105 -> 228
Strength bonus: (800/5) * 1.5 = 240 -> 468

Now we increase Str by 100:

Str bonus += 100/5 * 1.5 = 30

30 / 468 = 6%

Now let us consider armor. 660 armor pot at 40 provides 660 / (caster.Level * 44) * 0.4 = 15% mitigation, as you surmised.

However, the error here is in failing to account for the mechanism of armor.

If I have 0% armor, that additional +15% mitigation means that I am mitigating 15% more of the damage I would be taking without that potion.

If I have 50% armor, that additional +15% mitigation means that I am mitigating (15/50) = 30% of it instead.

This is why linear armor stacking is awful. With a linear effect like armor, the more you have of it, the more effective having still more of it becomes, and it's one of the problems that is rectified by % physical damage reduction.

Yeah, hadn't thought about that. Although, as in your example, if you start to factor in armor pen and armor debuff, that creep in armor effectiveness (or effective damage ''eaten'' by the pot after your base mitigation has done its job) is fairly well contained in a pretty narrow window (between 7% and 15%, for a 660 armor potion, unless you consider 0% armor pen and no armor debuff a common occurrence) within the true boundaries of the game, namely the max armor possible in the best gear (I can provide calculations if you want).

This being said, implementing a x% reduce damage will incur the same problem for toughness as we have with armor. The fact that toughness is applied after the damage reduction in the combat formula gives you the same problem you had before. If we propose a 10% damage reduction for demonstration purpose, the creep will span from 10% effectiveness for the potion at 0 toughness (such as intended) and reach about a 25% creep effectiveness at 1000 toughness (probably unintended).

Examples

Spoiler:

If this is the right formula in RoR :
((<tooltip> + <dps contribution>)+(<stat coefficient>*(<offensive stat>+<power stat>)/5)) x (1-<damage reduction>)-(<stat coefficient>*(<toughness>+fortitude>)/5) = damage
<damage> * (1-<mitigation from armour or resistances>) = <final damage>

We can then take your calculation for choppa damage as 500 :
(500)x(1- damage reduction)-(1.5 * toughness/5) = damage
damage* (1- mitigation from armor) = total damage

Then

NO POTION, 100 toughness, 1340 armor
total damage of 500 x (1-0) - (1.5 *100 /5)
500 x 1 - 30 = 470 damage. Mitigated by 1340 armor. 40% pen on choppa.
804 armor left, 18% mit. 18% x 470 = 85, Net Damage done : 470 -85 = 385.
Total mitigation : 500 - 385 = 115

660 ARMOR POT, 100 toughness, total 2000 armor
total damage of 500 x (1-0) - (1.5 * 100 /5)
500 x 1 - 30 = 470 damage. Mitigated by 2k armor with a 660 armor pot. 40% pen on choppa.
1200 armor left, 27% x 470 = 127, damnage done : 470 -127 = 343
Total mitigation : 500-343 = 157.
GAINZ FROM ARMOR POT : 42 more damage mit out of 385 = 11% creep

REDUCE 10% DAMAGE POT, 100 toughness, 1340 armor
total damage of 500 x (1-0.1) - (1.5 * 100 /5)
500 x 0.9 - 30 = 420 damage. Mitigated by 1340 armor. 40% pen on choppa.
804 armor, 18% mitigation, 18% x 420 = 76, damnage done : 420 -76 = 344
Total mitigation : 500-344= 156.
GAINZ FROM REDUCE DAMAGE POT : 44 more damage mit out of 385 = 11% creep, very close to potion intended value

______________________________________________________________________________________________________

NO POTION, 1000 toughness, 1340 armor
total damage of 500 x (1-0) - (1.5 *1000 /5)
500 x 1 - 300 = 200 damage. Mitigated by 1340 armor. 40% pen on choppa.
804 armor left, 18% mit. 18% x 200 = 36, Net Damage done : 200 -36 = 164.
Total mitigation : 500 - 164 = 336

660 ARMOR POT, 1000 toughness, total 2000 armor
total damage of 500 x (1-0) - (1.5 * 1000 /5)
500 x 1 - 300 = 200 damage. Mitigated by 2k armor with a 660 armor pot. 40% pen on choppa.
1200 armor left, 27% x 200 = 54, damnage done : 200 -54 = 146
Total mitigation : 500-146 = 354.
GAINZ FROM ARMOR POT : 18 more damage mit out of 164 = 11% creep

REDUCE 10% DAMAGE POT, 1000 toughness, 1340 armor
total damage of 500 x (1-0.1) - (1.5 * 1000 /5)
500 x 0.9 - 300 = 150 damage. Mitigated by 1340 armor. 40% pen on choppa.
804 armor, 18% mitigation, 18% x 150 = 27, damnage done : 150 -27 = 123
Total mitigation : 500-123= 377.
GAINZ FROM REDUCE DAMAGE POT : 41 more damage mit out of 164 = 25% creep, very far from potion intended value

Note : The toughness, from 100 to 1000 makes the effectiveness of 10% reduction damage potion creeps from 10% to 25% for any armor value

[pojoman61]

Just been reading along and watching.

Was just wondering if instead of a major pot rework: could we make aoe buffs not stack with pots(as it is currently) and then allow single target buffs by allowing them to stack with pots. By doing this you would need way less balancing. It would also allow classes with single target buffs to not be eclipsed by pots.

This would not only give BG/IB more reason to be included but would also lower dok/wp and knight/chosen in that the aoe buffs are still nice but no longer give out max buffs possible.

edit: just wanted to add that buffs would still not stack with each other. so everything would stay the same, except that single target buffs would stack with pots only.

so single target would still not stack with aoe or other single target buffs.

[Bozzax]

In some wierd way I like that

[Arbich]

that would make runepriests king. this way characters could get up to 2000 armor and 160 int/bal/str more than they usually have.

[pojoman61]

that would make runepriests king. this way characters could get up to 2000 armor and 160 int/bal/str more than they usually have.

then we could lower any outliers like RP.

also at most it would be the equivalent of 880 (or max pot)armor pot or 80 stat increase(or max pot) over what is currently in game because other buffs would still not stack.

[cimator]

Spoiler:

Im too lazy to read all the discussion here, but my opinion in this is that stat/armor pots should definitely change. I liked the idea that it can be 30sec buff with 5min cd, but higher stat/armor than usual so it can be used as more like a "save my ass" ability rather than permanent stat boost.

This is the balance forum, not a vote. Read and advance the discussion or do not post - Azarael

[gke96]

Something must be done with the current armor/stat potions thats for sure. Currently armor/stat potions makes absurdly many abilities completely useless. Right now around 1 ability of each class has become almost useless because of this.

I support the short duration idea the 30 sec every 5 min like thing. Or maybe even shorter like 10 sec and even more effective.

For tanks Kotbs and BG lack armor compared to other classes without potions.(not permanent) This would also be realized.
Btw if smth is going to be done to Chosen Kotbs resistance buffs, procs would be even much more stronger please consider that the resistances are our only defence againist procs which ignore toughness. And its insanely hard to increase your resistances with other ways. Also isnt black orc "Da Greenest" same?

[Eathisword]

Just been reading along and watching.

Was just wondering if instead of a major pot rework: could we make aoe buffs not stack with pots(as it is currently) and then allow single target buffs by allowing them to stack with pots. By doing this you would need way less balancing. It would also allow classes with single target buffs to not be eclipsed by pots.

This would not only give BG/IB more reason to be included but would also lower dok/wp and knight/chosen in that the aoe buffs are still nice but no longer give out max buffs possible.

This a interesting idea. Although, some buff would be over the top. IB's Guarded Attack, can buff armor upward to 950+ (with max mastery in Brotherhood). Couple that with a 907 armor potions and you now have nearly +1850 armor. Then stats buff are +120 maxed out, coupled with a +100 potion for a uber +220 stat gain.

Also worth nothing that AoE buff would not only not stack with potions, they would need to not stack with ST buff either. Otherwise, knigt + IB would be too strong, being able, together to buff 2 stats for more than 200, resist by 350 and armor for 1k. BG/chosen can't do that, they would be close, but not there as BG cant buff armor or resist.

As someone said, it is the same for RP/zealot armor buff, +1056 armor and -10% armor pen (the more armor you already have, the better it is) would also provide close to 2k armor xtra with a potion.

Then again, Shaman's do Somethin Useful would buff +200 toughness + 100 toughness pot for a 300 toughness increase, meaning pretty much any class running with a shammy/zealote combo could run around quite easily with 600-800 toughness and 4-5k armor. THis would make things weird, as destro is already more defensive than order because of Morale Pump and the central importance of Marauder.

But I really like the idea, as it would shift the meta game a lot ! Albeit, it would also require a lot of tweaking along the way.