[Rejected] [Engineer] Cannon Smash

[Akalukz]

Compared to the loose Mirror of the magus, it is a joke. Magus M3 (1200 Damage / 9 sec stagger... on a dot class)

Solution #3 Cannon smash 1200 damage +10s armor debuff

[Penril]

-aoe silence like zealot is good only vs caster and as bomb stop (then is fine really), an armored debuff is good vs anything most of order classes are hitting (magic classes on order side are only dd-runeprist/dd-AM/ BW): moreover silence give immunity and also zealot m3 and alike need to used in melee range (30 feets which mean 1wb vs 1wb will mostly die in the attempt or you will half hit or 75% hit tanks).

Funny that you mention Zealots, since they have an armor debuff pretty similar to CS on a M1. Sure, Tzeentch's Talon lasts 15s, but it also debuffs resists (therefore buffing the damage of EVERYONE, unlike Engies who only buff Physical damage). For this reason, I believe the armor debuff on CS is fine.

melee debuff from a healer in cloth which need to spam aoe heals all the time which those aoe heals take 2.5 sec to cast.

the time you need to move from your positon in wb came, risk to be killed and lower your party heal totally justify it.

Melee debuff? Go read Tzeentch's Talon description please before replying to me.

[blaqwar]

I think it's important to remember that Aza already implied a nerf to the wide-spread armor pots which will drop armor values down a bit. Also since the dev team understands the power creep in armor values those aren't likely to go out of whack on RoR as much in they did on live, at least not for careers that shouldn't be inehrently tanky (anything but tanks).

Which means that nerfing Cannon Smash values (20%?) likely won't have that big of an impact on the Engineer's now or in the future.

[Tesq]

Funny that you mention Zealots, since they have an armor debuff pretty similar to CS on a M1. Sure, Tzeentch's Talon lasts 15s, but it also debuffs resists (therefore buffing the damage of EVERYONE, unlike Engies who only buff Physical damage). For this reason, I believe the armor debuff on CS is fine.

melee debuff from a healer in cloth which need to spam aoe heals all the time which those aoe heals take 2.5 sec to cast.

the time you need to move from your positon in wb came, risk to be killed and lower your party heal totally justify it.

Melee debuff? Go read Tzeentch's Talon description please before replying to me.

no i was speaking of the M3 (my bad) which silence, the m1 is totally fine since do no damages; last 15 seconds and it's ST.

[Penril]

melee debuff from a healer in cloth which need to spam aoe heals all the time which those aoe heals take 2.5 sec to cast.

the time you need to move from your positon in wb came, risk to be killed and lower your party heal totally justify it.

Melee debuff? Go read Tzeentch's Talon description please before replying to me.

no i was speaking of the M3 (my bad) which silence, the m1 is totally fine since do no damages; last 15 seconds and it's ST.

Why the hell do you speak of Zealot M3 when i SPECIFICALLY mentioned the Zealot M1?

You claim Engie M3 is OP because it buffs damage to all Order physical-damage classes for 30s. I counter with saying that it isn't really OP since Destro has a armor+resist debuff on a M1 (which I see Zealots use all the time) which buffs damage for ALL destro classes. Yes, tzeentch's talon lasts 15 seconds, but it also debuffs Resists AND it is a M1. What part of that don't you get?

Now, if you are complaining about the 2.4k damage... Honestly, they can do way more than that with Unshakable Focus + their standard rotation on most targets. And SWs can still Festerbomb for more than that as well. Hell, Snipe alone can crit for 3k+ (with UF), and it is Undefendable just like a morale.

[Tesq]

i just got confused due the previously quote talking about silene aoe then i looked at m3 instead m1 sy; btw you cant compare a full and only effect moral with that m3 regardless the type of the debuff: the strenght of the damage also need to scale between morales.

cannon smash do 2400 damage st + armor debuff

m3 should do
a)1800+ secondary eff
b)1200 aoe
c)2400 with no additiona eff

(they scale in the range of 600 so 1800 with damage instead of a secondary eff is 2400)

that's how damage scale on morales, it's irrelevant if a full support moral boost both pshysical damages and magic damages; to balance a moral of this type you look at similar morales in damages + effect type and not full support type.
Also again raw damages from morales cannot be mitigate while the damages came from the debuff from that m1 can instead.

[Penril]

m3 should do
a)1800+ secondary eff
b)1200 aoe
c)2400 with no additiona eff

(they scale in the range of 600 so 1800 with damage instead of a secondary eff is 2400)

That's a lie. There are a LOT of morales that don't follow your scalation rules. Don't make up things.

[Tesq]

i know some tanks morales that do not follow this (becuase tank damages were nerf a lot in live) and most mastery moral 4 that are in bad shape because they where turned from moral 3 into m4 and viceversa at some point, all ista core damages morales follow this line, channeling morales do not because damages are not istant.

also to enforce my exemple core moral 4 for rdps do 1800 damages and it's aoe so it trade aoe for 600 damages while core mdps m3 is 1800 st + secondary eff

1800+600=2400 the scale are there inside core morales ; balance forum exist to point out inccorect value which is exatly the case we have here.

600 damages in this scheme are worth and can be removed if aoe or a secondary eff is granted.

Most of class restric/unique morale value are not correct that's not a news

[Penril]

i know some tanks morales that do not follow this (becuase tank damages were nerf a lot in live) and most mastery moral 4 that are in bad shape because they where turned from moral 3 into m4 and viceversa at some point, all ista core damages morales follow this line, channeling morales do not because damages are not istant.

also to enforce my exemple core moral 4 for rdps do 1800 damages and it's aoe so it trade aoe for 600 damages while core mdps m3 is 1800 st + secondary eff

1800+600=2400 the scale are there inside core morales ; balance forum exist to point out inccorect value which is exatly the case we have here.

600 damages in this scheme are worth and can be removed if aoe or a secondary eff is granted.

Most of class restric/unique morale value are not correct that's not a news

Slayer M3 has a secondary effect and does more damage than Mara's or WL's (also with a secondary effect), debunking your whole theory. Now stop restating this already debunked point.

[Tesq]

i know some tanks morales that do not follow this (becuase tank damages were nerf a lot in live) and most mastery moral 4 that are in bad shape because they where turned from moral 3 into m4 and viceversa at some point, all ista core damages morales follow this line, channeling morales do not because damages are not istant.

also to enforce my exemple core moral 4 for rdps do 1800 damages and it's aoe so it trade aoe for 600 damages while core mdps m3 is 1800 st + secondary eff

1800+600=2400 the scale are there inside core morales ; balance forum exist to point out inccorect value which is exatly the case we have here.

600 damages in this scheme are worth and can be removed if aoe or a secondary eff is granted.

Most of class restric/unique morale value are not correct that's not a news

Slayer M3 has a secondary effect and does more damage than Mara's or WL's (also with a secondary effect), debunking your whole theory. Now stop restating this already debunked point.

choppa supa chop m3 1800 + secondary effect ---> check
slayer m3 grievous harm for 1800 + secondary eff--->check
wl m3 dominace st do 1800 +secondary eff---> check

mara m3 tzeench reversal do 1200 damages + effect---> is a crap in fact (EDIT: 1200 damage + 1200 heal are raw 2400 in value is balanced then)
engi doing 2400 + secondary effect --->it's over the top


also

Spoiler:

"Those members of the community who have the Balance Forum Moderator usergroup are here to enforce the rules of this particular subforum, and were appointed for their ability and willingness to perform that function. Their usergroup does not mean that their opinions on balance are considered more valuable than those of anyone else within this subforum. It means only that they have the ability to issue infractions and bans within this area, and directives issued by them are to be respected."

sy but since this is not cover in the rule (and even if i am sure it will go gainst me ) are you sure if you get involve directly into a main point you can declare yourself if it's debunked or not?. You argue against me and then said no more!! it's debunked ..just by show me 1 moral that it's a crap one. in the same way cannon smash is over the top because it ended in this section.... your opinion matter as mine, is write at least this in the rules, just because you dont agree you cant say it's debunked that's a conflict of interest/power abuse between your role as a balance moderator and your main part against this argument and your tone in at least 1 post prove it. Furthermore my point was about istant core morales; now no one still have pointed me to 2 mirrored/core morales that do not respect this scale. And all healers core moral 2 respect this scheme, all rdps moral 4 respect this scheme, most of moral 3 respect this scheme.

Furthermore all later classes added to the game with their respective morales respect this scheme
kobs no escape M3 1200 + secondary eff+ aoe (1200+ 600+600= 2400)
choppa supa chop m3 1800 + secondary effect (1800+600=2400)
slayer m3 grievous harm 1800 + secondary eff (1800+600=2400)
Bg m3 armor of eternal servitude regen 2400 damages ( the trade off is the regen is over time but to make it worth you have armor buff)

all the correct sum are 2400.

i ask that aza or anyother with balance forum power judge if this is debunked or not and in which favour.