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[SW] Assault

Proposals which did not pass the two week review, were rejected internally, or were not able to be implemented.
dansari
Posts: 2524

[SW] Assault

Post#1 » Thu Aug 03, 2017 9:20 pm

Hello,

My main is a rr66 SW at the time of this post.

I'd like first to provide a list of SW abilities and tactics, base and speccable, that I'll be referring to in the post so as to make it easier to follow and so you don't have to sift through the career builder to know what I'm talking about.

Speccable Skirmish abilities/tactics:
  • 5pt: Shadow Sting, 50% incoming heal debuff & dot
    9pt: Flanking Shot, instant rear attack that has increased crit % based on target's missing hp. 10s cd
    11pt: Powerful Draw, tactic which increases all skirmish skills max range from 65ft to 98 ft
Base Assault abilities:
  • Grim Slash, instant damaging ability, 35ap, no cd
    Brutal Assault, instant rear attack, 5s cd, 40ap, if Vengeful (30s cd, 10s long base enchantment that increases damage by 25%), this ability can be used from any position
Speccable Assault abilities/tactics:
  • 3pt: Sinister Assault, tactic that empowers Brutal Assault to bypass all of target's armor
    5pt: Swift Strikes, channeled damaging ability that strikes twice each second for 3s. If the target is channeling an ability, the damage is increased. 13s cd
    13pt: Exploit Weakness, melee range 3s knockdown, 20s cd
1. Identify the issue
As it stands, Shadow Warrior is a very linear class. Yes, "stance dancing" separates the good from the great, but its viability is restricted by its access to Skirmish tree. Skirmish tree abilities are completely fine where they are, as its by far the most potent and effective tree the class has access to (primarily due to the heal debuff, 9pt finisher, and the range increaser tactic mentioned above). Scout tree has its drawbacks, but I would also argue that it's a completely viable spec that does not need tweaking in its current state, as it's a high risk/reward spec that is less mobile than it's ranged counterpart, Skirmish. Then we come to Assault: simply outshone in many ways by the other two trees. Assault, as it stands, is not viable as the main tree in a build. (One might argue that no tree will be a viable main in a build besides Skirmish simply because of the efficiency of Powerful Draw, but I digress).

2. Explain why it's an issue
If the goal of the staff is to bring all three trees for every class to the point of viability, I and many other SWs believe that Assault needs work. In reading through Aza's earlier framework about balance, I believe this to be the goal of the team, even while acknowledging that SW is a perfectly viable class in its current iteration. Drawing upon conversations with other SWs and referring to topics had in the past about Assault tree, I believe Assault tree could be updated in the following ways: slightly better AP management, an aoe detaunt, reliable utility added to damaging abilities within the tree, and a finisher.

3. Propose a viable solution to the problem
Building upon the issues brought up above, I'd like to propose a few changes to the Assault tree. Most of these will probably require client control. I'm not in love with any of these changes, so I would certainly entertain a discussion on adjusting them if they are felt to be too good or not good enough. Again, my main focus is not to tweak anything in regard to the already viable Scout & Skirmish trees.

Change #1
Decrease Grim Slash AP cost from 35 to 30.
  • Reasoning: This specifically was brought up in a previous discussion about Assault tree by players much smarter than me.
    I felt it only right to begin with a simple change that would provide for better AP management in the only spammable ability Assault has. This is significant because no other ability is an instant cast with no cd. It is the filler.
Change #2
Remove Swift Strikes and replace it with a 20ft aoe detaunt that lasts 5s with a 15s cd; likewise, remove Distracting Rebounds tactic.
  • Reasoning: No one uses Swift Strikes. It acts much like Rapid Fire in that it's OK in specific situations, but not good in most. Replacing it with an aoe detaunt (that is not tied to a tactic) gives melee SWs the ability to survive in melee train situations better (with the understanding that SW is a skirmisher, therefore they shouldn't be in the melee long, but it gives them the ability to finish single targets through melee after weakening them from range, which I believe is the point of having an Assault specced SW).
Change #3
Replace the 13pt knockdown with a finisher that can only be used when the target is below 50% (mirrors Cull the Weak from WL) with a 10s cd
  • Reasoning: SW already has a knockdown -- a fairly strong one at that. It also has a disarm on 20s. Assault also has a lot of other long cd abilities; it doesn't need another, and a finisher in Assault tree gives it rotation potential.
Change #4
Move the Vengeful condition from Brutal Assault and link it to Sinister Assault; move the buff from Sinister Assault to Brutal Assault if Vengeful, meaning: 3pt Sinister Assault tactic would now allow Brutal Assault to be used from any position (not restricted to behind the target), and Brutal Assault would now only ignore armor while Vengeful.
  • Reasoning: This can be considered a nerf and a buff -- Sinister Assault can be a strong tactic if used with Brutal Assault and Vengeful correctly; it would likely be too strong with these other changes, so taking the ignore armor condition away and linking it to the 30s cd, 10s timer on Vengeful allows the enemy to interupt the burst potential from SW by stripping the Vengeful enchant or CCing them when they pop it. Likewise, it can be considered a buff because it's freeing up a tactic slot from SW by tying the ignore armor buff to the base Brutal Assault ability (with Vengeful condition). It also increases the skillcap of the class slightly and plays into the rotation that SWs need to be successful in melee range.
  • Additions after feedback:

Change #5
Replace Sweeping Slash (9pt aoe damaging ability) with a finisher.

Change #6
Increase the damage on Swift Strikes by removing the condition to increase damage if the target is building up (or changing the condition to "if the target is ailing").
Last edited by dansari on Wed Aug 09, 2017 6:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Penril
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Re: SW: Assault Tree

Post#2 » Mon Aug 07, 2017 10:43 pm

Moving to discussions.

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peterthepan3
Posts: 6509

Re: SW: Assault Tree

Post#3 » Mon Aug 07, 2017 11:03 pm

Change 1 I don't really have much to comment on, but I would say that you can alleviate AP issues via the assault tactic/careful group composition. Also, one must bear in mind the ranged potential even an ASW has over its pure-melee counterparts, so it may make sense for it to have slightly higher costs than, say, a Marauder, because of this (just as pet classes have some higher AP costs due to pets).

Change 2 I actually like. Noone can spec for the aoe detaunt if you are serious about playing Assault, as you simply cannot afford to lose one of the vital tactics (you are stretched enough as it is: 15% dmg, anti-armor, ws grimslash, str/ws/bs, ap, leading shots for group utility). However, the ASW does have a self-KB/lots of CC to help it when it gets focused. Also, the channeled ability is very useless imo: you get more damage out of GS spam, and it means your already-limited AA potential (one of the biggest drawbacks about playing an ASW is the fact that you are essentially 1h) is further exacerbated.

Change 3 I like as well, though the melee KD is very useful when popping on an unsuspecting healer/dealing with melee in your face. You can't afford to just swap to Skirmish, KD, and hope to survive a lot of the time. You need that on-demand CC. However, it is true that you have a disarm. Perhaps it would just necessitate careful stance swapping and anticipating your enemies, not necessarily a bad thing. Either way, it would be nice to see ASW give more oomph in their damage - and not just rely on brutal assault to get kills.

Change 4 I don't agree with. The tactic purchase (on, as previously said, a pretty tactic-starved class) should 100% mean that BA hits as hard as possible. Positioning isn't an issue in the right hands. Making BA ignore armor means that the ASW is putting out decent DPS - without being totally reliant on VoN or M2. What this change would do is inverse the two: you can use the ability whenever you want, but ONLY ignore when VoN is up. Given that the ASW has 1h, limited AA, and will never deal real MDPS pressure, I think it's safe to experiment with the proposed changes - without feeling the need to nerf it in other ways. Naturally, the only concern would be synergising such changes with the other trees (Skirmish in particular), but you would only really be going for the HD from Skirm as there are simply too many useful things to pick up from Assault (even moreso if proposed changes, i.e. AoE Detaunt, were implemented).
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Manatikik
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Re: SW: Assault Tree

Post#4 » Mon Aug 07, 2017 11:27 pm

dansari wrote:Hello,

Change #1
Decrease Grim Slash AP cost from 35 to 30.
  • Reasoning: This specifically was brought up in a previous discussion about Assault tree by players much smarter than me.
    I felt it only right to begin with a simple change that would provide for better AP management in the only spammable ability Assault has. This is significant because no other ability is an instant cast with no cd. It is the filler.
I agree with this change because it helps the Assault SW in the situation where they get in to an extended melee fight before they can disengage and get back out to reapply AA/BHA/SS before going in again.
dansari wrote:Change #2
Remove Swift Strikes and replace it with a 20ft aoe detaunt that lasts 5s with a 15s cd; likewise, remove Distracting Rebounds tactic.
  • Reasoning: No one uses Swift Strikes. It acts much like Rapid Fire in that it's OK in specific situations, but not good in most. Replacing it with an aoe detaunt (that is not tied to a tactic) gives melee SWs the ability to survive in melee train situations better (with the understanding that SW is a skirmisher, therefore they shouldn't be in the melee long, but it gives them the ability to finish single targets through melee after weakening them from range, which I believe is the point of having an Assault specced SW).
I am heavily against this change. I'm against this change for two key factors: 1) you can build a completely viable 40/40 Skirmisher build where you lose out on no damage and get an AoE Detaunt as a RDPS(Yes this becomes less of a problem at RR 60 with the FtW build but for a large portion of players this would be a go to advantage) and 2) in its current state Swift Strikes is a decent move to use in Assault for the middle of your rotation for damage and removing it then just makes all your damage come from DoT's, Grim Slash, and BA. The only change I would like to see changed to Swift Strikes is up it's damage to the vs. build-up amount and simply remove the requirement of vs. build-up; this way it gives you more reliable damage verse other melees and makes Assault more viable outside of ORvR solo roaming looking for easy kills.
dansari wrote:Change #3
Replace the 13pt knockdown with a finisher that can only be used when the target is below 50% (mirrors Cull the Weak from WL) with a 10s cd
  • Reasoning: SW already has a knockdown -- a fairly strong one at that. It also has a disarm on 20s. Assault also has a lot of other long cd abilities; it doesn't need another, and a finisher in Assault tree gives it rotation potential.
I agree with this; but I think it would be okay to mirror either Cull the Weak or Fell the Weak with more emphasis on FtW so we aren't cloning other classes but just turning one skill into a mirrored ability within the same class.
dansari wrote:Change #4
Move the Vengeful condition from Brutal Assault and link it to Sinister Assault; move the buff from Sinister Assault to Brutal Assault if Vengeful, meaning: 3pt Sinister Assault tactic would now allow Brutal Assault to be used from any position (not restricted to behind the target), and Brutal Assault would now only ignore armor while Vengeful.
  • Reasoning: This can be considered a nerf and a buff -- Sinister Assault can be a strong tactic if used with Brutal Assault and Vengeful correctly; it would likely be too strong with these other changes, so taking the ignore armor condition away and linking it to the 30s cd, 10s timer on Vengeful allows the enemy to interupt the burst potential from SW by stripping the Vengeful enchant or CCing them when they pop it. Likewise, it can be considered a buff because it's freeing up a tactic slot from SW by tying the ignore armor buff to the base Brutal Assault ability (with Vengeful condition). It also increases the skillcap of the class slightly and plays into the rotation that SWs need to be successful in melee range.
I would say no to this change because it doesn't offer a real increase in damage to Assault (in fact i'd say it lowers the overall DPS because a good SW will position properly for the BA and the full-time armor pen > the removal of positional requirements) while also giving non-assault SW's a more potent damage burst when they swap to Assault for the Armor when MDPS catches up to them; this would let them VoN > BA and chunk the attacker's HP.

A real change that I think needs to be made is to Sweeping Slash to make it a even halfway decent skill; no idea what the change should be just my opinion that we can look at at another time.
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Toldavf
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Re: SW: Assault Tree

Post#5 » Mon Aug 07, 2017 11:52 pm

1. I would say your AP management is about average given a standard 7 ability rotation for a melee class given standard rotations of those classes. You are only around 15-20 AP behind a marauder for instance depending on your preferred standard rotation. Here's the thing about grim slash you could add the AP reduction and still be around the correct level of AP cost for an MDPS, However i would be loath to do so as Grim slash is linked to one of the best melee tactics in the game wrist slash. I think given the strength of this debuff 35 AP is fair from a game balance perspective.

2. I dislike the idea of multiple detaunts on dps classes, a better change would of been if distracting rounds changed the functionality of your detaunt to that of an mdps.

3. I'm unsure about a finisher as the class already has brutal assault an ability that can hit crazy hard with the sinister assault tactic, I would even go so far as to say this ability will out damage pierce armour at times. I would basically dislike seeing people get 2 shotted because you had morale 2 up.

4. Change 4 seems to debunk your own argument, you want an ability that flat just hits harder ready every 5 seconds, 40 ap every 5 seconds is near slayer level of AP consumption. Sure the dps would be better, but you would run dry much faster, especially if you combine it with something like whispering winds.
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dansari
Posts: 2524

Re: SW: Assault Tree

Post#6 » Tue Aug 08, 2017 12:09 am

Thanks for the comments so far. I agree that having an AOE detaunt is odd for an rdps when you already have a detaunt available. The main concern is that once you're in melee range, there isn't much you can do by yourself to stay alive. You could potentially change the 9pt ability to something that decreases damage if the AOE detaunt was deemed too strong.

For change #4, I added that because along with the other changes I felt it would be too strong. From the comments so far it sounds like it would be completely fine given you're running a high risk/high reward melee build. Just giving my thoughts and of course I appreciate the feedback.. keep it coming.
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Bozzax
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Re: SW: Assault Tree

Post#7 » Tue Aug 08, 2017 7:15 am

So you are suggesting an armor ignoring channel and a big critfinisher that can be stacked with von +25% damage, uf +100% damage, 3-4 dots inc hd/ini debuff?
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Ugle
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Re: SW: Assault Tree

Post#8 » Tue Aug 08, 2017 8:20 am

Feedback from one who actually plays ASW quite a lot (with variable success)
#1: Agree that Grim slash should have a lower AP cost. (Was me that suggested it in previous "what would you like buffed on SW" thread). To say cost is fine due to wrist slash tactic is good, I would call unreasonable as it allready cost a tactic slot. And as a matter of fact wrist slash is the only good ASW tactic you can manage without in assault spec. (As you will be rocking 600+ WS anyways (not taking into account ini debuff, usually covered by eye shot in advance).

Edit:

#2: I would rather see swift strikes functioning rather then reworked. Upping the dmg a tad would be nice and enough imo.

#3: I would also leave MeleeKD as it is, gives opportunities for fun encounters vs 2 enemies with two kds, though two kds on same target is no use as fight is over before immunities is gone.

#4: sounds like over the top.

As Fenryl said, a rework of sweeping slash would be nice as it is useless today. Maybe rework into a fell the weak type melee ability as per your suggestion #3.

Also on live both bow and sword got half stat contribution from offhand/ bow to alleviate 1h fighting issues. Ofc dualwield would be awsome!!
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dansari
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Re: SW: Assault Tree

Post#9 » Wed Aug 09, 2017 6:03 pm

I'm actually not sure how the stat contribution performs currently. Don't you get full stats from the sword while at range and full stats from the bow when in melee (but you don't get the +dps from the other weap)?

Here's a few variations I think could work given the feedback in this thread:

Option 1
Go with original post without #4, i.e. implement #1 (ap reduction on Grim Slash), #2 (replace Swift Strikes with an aoe detaunt), and #3 (replace melee kd with a finisher of some sort).

Option 2
Implement #1 and #2. Instead of going with #3, replace Sweeping Slash (9pt aoe damaging cone ability) with a finisher.

This would allow Assault SWs to have lowered grim slash cost, an aoe detaunt, a finisher at 9pts (like Flanking Shot in Skirmish spec), and keep the melee kd at 13pts.

Option 3
Implement #1. Instead of #2, increase the damage on Swift Strikes by removing the condition on if the target is building up. (If you want to keep a condition, you could make it check if the target is Ailing instead). Instead of #3, replace Sweeping Slash with a finisher.

This would allow SWs to have lowered grim slash cost, a more attractive (higher dmg) 5pt ability rather than the originally proposed aoe detaunt, and a finisher at 9pt instead of a (to put it bluntly, useless) 9pt aoe ability.

I'll put these in the OP as additional changes so they're easy to discuss.
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dansari
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Re: SW: Assault Tree

Post#10 » Wed Aug 09, 2017 6:06 pm

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