[BO] Da Big 'Un

[Nefarian78]

Spoiler:

No it does serve a purpose and you stated it. It is a baseline stat steal extremely similar to pheonix wing from the SM. We get it for free where the SM has to spec into it. Your also comparing a 2nd step ability to a 3rd step ability, which due to how the BO's mechanic works is very different. If you need to keep up your proc's you go big swing then da big un. Since da big un is baseline you don't need to spec into it where Waaaagh you do.

And SMs have a baseline 25% Parry buff and Wall of Darting Steel. We're discussing BOs, not SMs.
The purpose of stat-stealing is already fulfilled by Big Swing. Wheter or not we're comparing a gud plan or best plan skill isn't important. Big Swing fulfills the role of stat stealing and does it better.

If your heavy brawler 2hnder spec with three hit you generally don't go waaaagh. Which mean's you lack a good AE stat stealer for a 3rd step. You have to be in melee range to apply 3 hit. You don't for da big un and you can still stat steal. That has value.

If you're going to use a 2h on BOs, Brawler is the only Tree you should spec into. There's no point in going Boss with a 2h. Why trade SnB for a 2h to gain damage, and then spec into a Path that is focused on supporting and debuffing? Might aswell use a SnB, since the damage gain from a 2h Boss build compared to SnB Boss is negligible. And as said before, Big Swing already fulfills the role of stat-stealing, and covers more space than Big 'Un. What is the purpose of having a skill that is basically a mirror of Big Swing but in Best Plan? 1 skill to aoe stat steal is enough, we don't need to have multiples.

Is there any other skill in the game that allows you to stack a guard damage reduction? Guard damage is guard damage.. the only way you can decrease guard damage is to stack avoidance.

You've dodged my question. It doesn't matter if there aren't buffs that reduce guard damage in the game. If the devs have the ability to create it (and want to) they can always add it to other tanks too, if it's needed.

Beefing da bun may be problematic.
Consider a BO using guard together with high parry, loudmouth, best plan on parry build and spam waagh / da bun (filler

That build requires rr70, it's not like everyone is at rr70. And besides, That build wouldn't be as powerful as you think. You would become a Waaaagh!/Big 'Un spambot and do nothing else, and the damage you deal wouldn't be that high. The only upside would be having an high uptime on Red Frenzy and stat-steals. Stacking parry will force you to make choices in gear, and lose some offensive stats, further lowering your damage.

No cherry picking/omnislashing

[dansari]

I didn't dodge. It would be over powered by design. If you had a cap of 3 on it, then sure.. take it.. make it 5% for a total of 15% off guard damage. If you want it to be 9... Get outta here. No matter what the % is, it would be too strong because by design it would be unreasonable for warband play. Or you can try to prove how it wouldn't be OP

[Nefarian78]

You got it completely wrong, Dansari. I might have not been clear enough.

You hit 1 player with Big 'Un, you get a stack of the buff, 1% guard dmg reduction. You hit 10, you get 10 stacks, 10% damage reduction. You hit 50? You get 20% DMG reduction, because the buff is capped at 20%. The numbers can easily be changed, but for now let's say it's capped at 20% in our discussions.

[Annaise16]

Da Big Un is your 3rd stance aoe damage ability. It was probably designed to be used for drawing mob aggro in pve tanking situations in the pre stance shift era. It might not have that use anymore but why should it be changed to make BOs stronger?

[Bozzax]

Beefing da bun may be problematic.
Consider a BO using guard together with high parry, loudmouth, best plan on parry build and spam waagh / da bun (filler

That build requires rr70, it's not like everyone is at rr70. And besides, That build wouldn't be as powerful as you think. You would become a Waaaagh!/Big 'Un spambot and do nothing else, and the damage you deal wouldn't be that high. The only upside would be having an high uptime on Red Frenzy and stat-steals. Stacking parry will force you to make choices in gear, and lose some offensive stats, further lowering your damage.

It is very easy to adjust the build I provided to a rr40 build so I cant see your point.
Yes you would be an aoe spambot like most in orvr. Damage is not bad I suggest you test it some day

[dansari]

You got it completely wrong, Dansari. I might have not been clear enough.

You hit 1 player with Big 'Un, you get a stack of the buff, 1% guard dmg reduction. You hit 10, you get 10 stacks, 10% damage reduction. You hit 50? You get 20% DMG reduction, because the buff is capped at 20%. The numbers can easily be changed, but for now let's say it's capped at 20% in our discussions.

Right. So, prove how that wouldn't be completely irrelevant in small scale and broken in rvr. BO would be the only tank that could decrease the amount of guard damage they take without stacking avoidance.

[Nefarian78]

Right. So, prove how that wouldn't be completely irrelevant in small scale and broken in rvr. BO would be the only tank that could decrease the amount of guard damage they take without stacking avoidance.

How can i prove something that i can't test in-game? Numerically speaking, a 20% less dmg coming from guard in RvR would make hardly the difference you talk about. You're still missing tons of defensive stats coming from your shield, and the most important skill of all RvR. Hold The Line. It would make 2h BOs a good choice, but far from being overpowered.

As for Scs, it would be a welcome change, but not a gamebreaking one. Due to the limited amount of enemies you can't stack the full 20% reduction, so the skill balances itself based on players. This solution is aimed towards RvR and large-scale fights, not smallscale

Solution 1 is the most viable, while solution 3 is better for RvR and less for Scs.

Btw, you missed what i wrote in my other post. It's a new mechanic, if the devs feel like it's something they want to add to the game, it can also be added to other tanks aswell.

It is very easy to adjust the build I provided to a rr40 build so I cant see your point.
Yes you would be an aoe spambot like most in orvr. Damage is not bad I suggest you test it some day

Adjusting that build to rr40 will drastically nerf your damage. And i did try that build more than once after Red Frenzy was added to the game. It's nowhere near as powerful as you think it is.

In RvR, the damage you deal won't matter whatsoever. There's dps classes for that. Most fights between coordinated Wbs end up with WB-wide morale drop on the enemy WB and will end quite quickly.

In Scs you're completely useless. In Pug scs you will likely end up high in the damage score, but all that damage is completely negated by a couple of HoT ticks and over-healed by any AoE heal spell. Damage isn't that important if you can't land a single killing blow in the entirety of the match. There's no need to explain how bad that build does in 6v6 now. Even if any of the solutions go live, that build would still perform badly.

[footpatrol2]

Spoiler:

The purpose of stat-stealing is already fulfilled by Big Swing. Wheter or not we're comparing a gud plan or best plan skill isn't important. Big Swing fulfills the role of stat stealing and does it better.

No It is important due to how the Black Orc's mechanic works. You can use a first step ability then big swing and first step ability then big swing over and over and drain your AP. Seems like thats what your doing... or you can use first step ability, big swing and straight into big un for more stat steal. That has value. Big Un also doesn't cost any AP. Big Swing does by alot. Big un being almost identical to big swing but doesn't cost AP has value.

If you're going to use a 2h on BOs, Brawler is the only Tree you should spec into. There's no point in going Boss with a 2h. Why trade SnB for a 2h to gain damage, and then spec into a Path that is focused on supporting and debuffing? Might aswell use a SnB, since the damage gain from a 2h Boss build compared to SnB Boss is negligible. And as said before, Big Swing already fulfills the role of stat-stealing, and covers more space than Big 'Un. What is the purpose of having a skill that is basically a mirror of Big Swing but in Best Plan? 1 skill to aoe stat steal is enough, we don't need to have multiples.

If your going 2h BO Brawler is not the only tree you go into. If you are 40/40 you have more spec points then a spec can provide. You have off-spec points you need to dump into a non main spec tree. I'm not talking about going heavy boss. I'm talking about you picked up 3 hit combo so your main spec is Brawler You still have off-spec points you need to distribute.

Also if desired you go into boss to increase the damage of shut yur face and with can youz hear me now? tactic is the hardest hitting ability black orcs have. So there is reason to put points into boss tree to increase the damage you do by shut ur face for 2h BO's. Have you not seen the live video's of 2hnder BO's?

What is the purpose of having a skill that is basically a mirror of Big Swing but in Best Plan? 1 skill to aoe stat steal is enough, we don't need to have multiples.

The purpose of Big Un is it is A zero AP AE touch ability that can trigger stat steal. It can be used immediately after Big swing at zero AP cost... it is baseline... for more stat steal. Having multiple's and one not costing AP is nice.

No cherry picking/omnislashing

[Nefarian78]

Spoiler:

No It is important due to how the Black Orc's mechanic works. You can use a first step ability then big swing and first step ability then big swing over and over and drain your AP. Seems like thats what your doing... or you can use first step ability, big swing and straight into big un for more stat steal. That has value. Big Un also doesn't cost any AP. Big Swing does by alot. Big un being almost identical to big swing but doesn't cost AP has value.

You're giving the plans too much importance, when there's no need to, in this discussion. I don't spam Big Swing, i use it when i need to and when i can get value out of it. Why do we need Big 'Un only purpose to be another way of proccing stat steal skill? A tool that only works when you're using Da Biggest, and then be completely pointless in everything if you're running any other Bellow. Does that sound like a skill that is implemented well? Because to me it doesn't. It's okay to have skill work better with certain bellows compared to others, and perform better or worse in depending on your situation, but that's just too far.

if your going 2h BO Brawler is not the only tree you go into. If you are 40/40 you have more spec points then a spec can provide. You have off-spec points you need to dump into a non main spec tree. I'm not talking about going heavy boss. I'm talking about you picked up 3 hit combo so your main spec is Brawler You still have off-spec points you need to distribute.

Also if desired you go into boss to increase the damage of shut yur face and with can youz hear me now? tactic is the hardest hitting ability black orcs have. So there is reason to put points into boss tree to increase the damage you do by shut ur face for 2h BO's. Have you not seen the live video's of 2hnder BO's?

I didn't say that you ONLY spec into Brawler. That should be your main spec tho (unless you want to be an hindrance to your team) of course you're going to spend points in other Trees, but Boss was never the best choice. Now we're going to have to, after Down Ya go was moved from 9pts to 13. You might have missed the beauty of Down Ya Go, i could easily hit for 1.5k + dmg with that, saving a tactic slot, in addition of having a KD wich is superior compared to a Silence.

There's no point in discussin live 2h BO videos. I played live, and i know the videos you're talking about. We're NEVER going to have our 4k+ Shut Yer Face hits back. Most of that damage came from insanely overpowered gear, not the class, and in most cases was on undergeared squishies.

The purpose of Big Un is it is A zero AP AE touch ability that can trigger stat steal. It can be used immediately after Big swing at zero AP cost... it is baseline... for more stat steal. Having multiple's and one not costing AP is nice.

You've stated this point already. Do we really need Big Un to be stuck in doing only that? No, we do not. 2h BOs desperately need some way of surviving, we've always been the only 2h tank missing survivability and fought for not being the worse 2h tank with Chosens for a while. With the Crippling Strikes and Down Ya Go change, we lost that "duel".

Inb4 "we have dmg" There's Mdps for that already, 2h tanks should have their own role, and that isn't being a sligthly tankier Mdps dealing less than half of their damage.

Looking at the recent changes to 2h Punts, the Dev team intends to make 2h tanks "Shock Troopers" aka the ones you need to push and break enemy lines, while the Mdps finishes them off. That's exactly what 2h tanks need. A role that they can perform better compared to SnB. *(This is my interpretation of the patch notes, could be completely wrong)*

No cherry picking/omnislashing

[Acidic]

Big Un is the only 2H specific BO skill and as such any changes should be to enhance the 2H play style.
BO playing 2H suffer from lack of survivablity, well mine at least. Adding a parry buff would really make a difference to surviability and help. With all the range about dodge would be a good alternative that would help but not affect the the BO tactics