Terrible Embrace (range check, defensibility)

[Bretin]

Well, casts with CD should go on CD after an interrupt.
Otherwise, I don't see the point to Taunt/interrupt TE =Taunt goes on CD and the marau can cast TE again.

Terrible Embrace has a channel time. During this time the Marauder is not able to deal any damage. If the tank successfully interrupts the cast he prevents the pressure on his team for quite a while - especially if the marauder decides to pull again - while the marauder himself will still receive damage.

Also if TE got taunted the target has more than enough time to break LoS or move out of range to prevent the next one by himself. The Knight alone can provide 4 interrupts. 4 interrupts in a row are 6 seconds without pressure, that's quite huge especially when considering that the marauder will receive the full amount of pressure during this 6 seconds. putting it on cooldown would be simply dumb and punish all cast based classes.

[Vayra]

Yeah, putting interrupted casts on CD would be monumentally stupid, and the only thing that could even come close to compensating for it is to remove ALL pushback on all casts. Casters are already heavily punished when they have even 1 person hitting them in melee while melee classes have no such damage reduction from being hit (but this is a discussion for another thread).

[Koha]

Most of the time a marau will cast TE when he's out of range of its target, so the loss of damage is nearly null (but I got your point of view).

Indeed getting Cd on all caster would be too punishing. EDIT : most casted healshave no CD, so nothing would change on that side.

Getting 4 interrupts in a sc, ok but in Orvr where TE is used and abused to get people below oil or in a zerg, not sure Taunt is enough.

[Tesq]

Most of the time a marau will cast TE when he's out of range of its target, so the loss of damage is nearly null (but I got your point of view).

Indeed getting Cd on all caster would be too punishing. EDIT : most casted healshave no CD, so nothing would change on that side.

Getting 4 interrupts in a sc, ok but in Orvr where TE is used and abused to get people below oil or in a zerg, not sure Taunt is enough.

To speak from orvr view, war is an offensive game with a lot of incentive to go melee even for magic casters, if a mara want pull he have all the right to do that you cannot keep kite, it's a pvp game you need to fight in the end with guard etc: unless you get pull a lot inside the enemy lines but that's just like ST peeling the enemy ranks and with mass vs mass in rvr that's not a greater issue unless you are alredy kiting which is exatly what pull are meant to counter and is what your tank should close the tail wb for. Kite is alredy strong due to am/sh pot, ranged KB, ranged KD, spee proc buff(in future) flee, M2.
Mara pull is argumentaly the only ST gap-closer/anti-kite tool destru have exept chosen/bg dirupt tactics( they do not work against SW anyway and their chance can be reduced the more you stack block). Then compare it to magus/engi pull is not so great if you really want to break the balance in the lake, unless i told you you are peeling 1 by 1 the enemys to st focussing them down out of guard range something that do not work when pulling aoe.

[Koha]

I'm not jeopardizing TE as a skill. I'm not Order biased neither, only talking about the risk/reward and counterplay to such ability.

Rift is engaging for magus/engies, not TE nor Fetch.
Best kiters are Shamans and SH, and they can defend Fetch better than Order TE (bump snare desarm).
I suppose its a counterpart to Order rKD and Pounce.
Marau has a 100 feet stun still, WE a 30 feet stun and Order have 2 100 feet indeed.

[noisestorm]

Small input from me:
You guys are all beating around the bush.
On the first page there were mentioned a few points and you should rather look at those:

360° Defense due to int and not str good? yes/no
Endcast-Rangecheck too strict? yes/no
Range itself good/bad ?
Interrupt possibilites appropriate?

Those are the things you should look at and talk explicitly about.
You're supposed to talk about pros and cons of the current implementation and how or why you would change X and Y of it.

Edit: Consider this a warning towards any upcoming derailing or further chit-chat that is not point on the issues/problems of this discussion.

[Azarael]

Getting 4 interrupts in a sc, ok but in Orvr where TE is used and abused to get people below oil or in a zerg, not sure Taunt is enough.

The way that pulls in general become very powerful in zerg conditions is not something I think is unique to Marauder, and I would rather address the zerg conditions in ORvR later than design pulls around this particular case.

I don't believe that interruption mechanics need a change, either. Remember that modifying the way that casts are interrupted has implications for every cast in the game, not just TE, and being able to use one of the many interruption facilities in the game to instantly put a TE on cooldown isn't a good thing - it's too strong a counter, in my opinion.

The topic should indeed focus around whether the range and defensibility checks are OK at the moment. On these subjects, I'm mostly convinced. The range check on live RoR should now match Age of Reckoning, by the way, as I've patched.

[Tesq]

@ noise for me i tough it was clear i was debating around point 2, i'm not sure to who you were refering, and i restraind myself to talk about point 1 as im not sure about it. Since point 2 mentioned a change from landing on mara to landing on a fixed x,y point.
To be fair the discussion was costructive for me until now.

edit: nvm see now the edit, regard pounce i was not call it in cause cos it's a wl skill and so wl is mara mirror, but more generally as as "gap closer"; if pull and pounce as well are consideret gap closer any gap closer after pounce fix it's suppose being functionaly if the target arrive at your location or you go to land at target location.

So if you see pounce and pull as gap close a change in how target land would be discriminatory (not related to mirror but for any gap closer in game even for future discussion cos pounce was fixed here for that reason as gap closer and not due to TE being better,that's what i tried to tell there; as gap closer that was a critical issue).

[Bozzax]

Fetch gets frequently trashtalked on forums. Still i don't understand why. What you guys seem to forget is that the WL does not necessarily have to fetch to close a gap or punish a bad positioning.

Yep overall they are actually surprisingly equal both have pros and cons.The fact WLs have pounce imo is very influential on why WLs use/value fetch less then Maras use TE. Spot on imo!

Target

• Dispatch and "forget" / Same target during channel

Range

• 65 feet / 65 feet

Pull time

• Pet travel time but WL is free to do other actions / 2s Channel, no damage not even AA

Warning signs

• Pet runs over / Super obvious animation

Counters

• Kill pet, CC pet, LOS / Kill Mara, CC Mara, interrupt, setback, LOS

Avoidance

• Parry (front) / Disrupt (360)

65feet is about right after charge fix.

I wouldn't change TE to strength/parry as it typically have a shorter pull time (2s vs travel time) and therefore needs to fail more.

WL on the other hand commit more to the pull but also have an instant pull with higher success rate if the pets makes it the target.

Good to see that you changed the @2s range check

[Shadowgurke]

360° Defense due to int and not str good? yes/no

I agree with bloodi in that I think keeping an ability in check due to RNG is bad design and should be avoided. On the other hand I think TE with a STR-check might be too strong. Is it possible to have multiple defense checks on an ability? Like 4 checks for disrupt and if 2 pass then target gets pulled, otherwise TE gets disrupted? I feel like a 30s ability does not need lucky disrupts to counter it

Interrupt possibilites appropriate?

There are already more than enough ways to counter TE. If everybody could counter TE then it would not be worth using at all. Especially the recently discussed CD on taunt would be terrible - having to wait 30s to try again and just as likely get interrupted as well will make the ability worthless. I think taunt delaying the pull is more than enough.