[Implemented] Group cleansing.

[Vrierst]

Spoiler:

I know nobody is going to agree, but I think there are no problem in issues that this thread is all about. Group cleansing is fine.

Don't touch anything.

Keep the good working in something more useful, for instance, "ethernal jumping" of WL or "infinite range" of Magi and Engi's pets.

Thank you for reading.

This is not how Balance discussions work. "I think gcleanse is fine" is not a valid argument; "gcleanse is fine because X,Y and Z", on the other hand, is. If you are not gonna bother explaining WHY it is fine, then don't bother posting - Penril.

[Sy1ver]

I have to ask what is the purpose of suggested changes? To make life of dok\wp harder?

[georgehabadasher]

If nothing is done with WP/DoK group cleanse, an AoE cleansing effect or other cleanse improvement will be added to AM/Shaman. Advance warning.

I will not allow a state to continue in which one class has an effect considered a crutch of the game's balance.

The other healers desperately need to be brought up to par with WPs/DoKs, but it needs to be done very carefully. DPS in this game is very high and group cleanse is one thing that helps keep it in check--especially for BWs and Sorcs. Buffing the other healers so they're all viable (or, ideally, preferred as a second healer instead of double DOK/WP) in a competitive group might be a more realistic solution than nerfing WP/DOK.

Nerfing group cleanse on WP/DOK will mostly benefit BW/Sorc and Slayers. Even moving it to another healing archetype greatly benefits those DPS classes because the other healing archetypes are much less common (currently) than DOK/WP and will continue to be unless their other problems are addressed. Taking your AM/Shaman example. Their problem is they can't heal when they're under pressure. Giving them group cleanse won't change that, so we're not going to suddenly have a lot of AMs and Shamans rerolls replacing WP/DOKs.

To sum up...
Yes, DOK/WP are the strongest healers.
Yes, group cleanse is a big part of that.
Yes, the other healers need to be brought up to par.
But, maybe we should take a different approach that won't buff some of the strongest DPS classes in the game.

[Zamoth]

Through all this balancing/nerf situation, please bear in mind how much debuffs are in the game. Not to mention the extreme high damage output of certain classes. It is already pretty hard to keep your premade party alive, not talking about pugs.
The average scenario setup on order side consists of at least of 2-3bws, 2 shadow warriors, dps AM + a bunch of engis.
So if your party engages the enemy, buffhead seems to explode within seconds. Life debuff, heal debuff and what not.
If you intend to take away the GC tactic, you only shorten the time to kill. Fights will be over in seconds, once all debuffs are applied.
Maybe it´s unfair that only Dok & Wp have access to this tactic, but to take it away, or nerf its cooldown and so on seems to be the wrong way.

Vertexa / Despair.

[Thelen]

I like the change where it makes the cleanse target AoE debuffs, since thats what the tactic is slotted for and would definitely make it more difficult for slayers to "hide" their CD Increaser BS ability.

I think regardless of the change, SH/AM should get a good look about also getting an AoE cleanse (as long as it functioned similar - AoE debuffs only). Ever since the buffs to engi/magus, DoT stacking at keep attacks is insane.

[Vrierst]

Well,

I find it a little silly but i'm going to explain you that group cleansing removes dot damage, but not direct damage, if u don't use dot damage, spamming group cleansing is a waste and it kills ur party. If u nerf group cleansing, you are, automatically, overpowering single target players/careers, and you would nerf the "playing as a team" phylosophy. We will see a lot of BW and Sorcs going alone all around knowing they are able to kill anybody as they can do it now, but faster than now. That means that they will be able to kill more people before dieing. A profitable investing.

The game has a problem encouraging players to play supporting careers (tanks and healers). There are a lot of dps asking for party and playing in their own. If you nerf a supporting career, how do you think that is going to affect the population of healers?

If you nerf supporting careers, you are encouraging people to play dps, and there are already too many dps in this game.

It's my opinion as player. Of course you can do what you love with your game. It's just an advice. Take it as what it is. Sorry if I found it so obvious that I didn't think this explanation might be needed.

No drama.

[Chaoself]

Since there is too high dps and too many rdps i wouldnt touch group cleanse till that changes. We are suffering this engi/bw/sw (and their mirrors) fest that can be countered only with good dispel and proper support. Just give group cleanse to AM/Shaman and make em to be an option over dok's/wp's.

[Penril]

Since there is too high dps and too many rdps i wouldnt touch group cleanse till that changes. We are suffering this engi/bw/sw (and their mirrors) fest that can be countered only with good dispel and proper support. Just give group cleanse to AM/Shaman and make em to be an option over dok's/wp's.

Shaman can't cleanse BW/Engie though.

[Sy1ver]

Nerfing group cleanse on WP/DOK will mostly benefit BW/Sorc and Slayers.

This mostly benefit order.

Slayers because of ID\SL. This will throw WE out of 6v6 setups as one damaging ability class. Mara\Choppo will get huge dps drop as well. You also have to pick at least one mara to get one decent heal debuff.

Bright Wizards because of dot based aoe burst.

Engies ofc as all dot based classes. Mindless aoe dot spam in rvr will benefit alot, you can't manage pack of dots anymore with aoe cleans and aoe HoT, to counter this you have to stand still and group heal. Who you gonna call? Doks! Not enough? Concussive Mine engie tac, get perma disoriented for +50% cast time. Uncounterable 4.5 sec Doombolt cast, 3.75 sec group heals for rest of healers except doks.

Destro meta doesn't based over any aoe debuff in party\warband scale.

[Chaoself]

Since there is too high dps and too many rdps i wouldnt touch group cleanse till that changes. We are suffering this engi/bw/sw (and their mirrors) fest that can be countered only with good dispel and proper support. Just give group cleanse to AM/Shaman and make em to be an option over dok's/wp's.

Shaman can't cleanse BW/Engie though.

Well, considering those are the 2 strongest dps on order right now, why nerfing group cleanse instead make a revision of em? and anyways, giving to shaman/AM group cleanse will help to counter the rest of dps (slayer aoe for ex).
I dont see any point into nerfing dok/wp group cleanse right now with this insane damage from careers that can hit beyond detaunt range.