[Engineer,Magus]Keg,Aegis change v.2

[wargrimnir]

Considering you have 1 engineer per group on 2 wb . 8 engineer heal then .
On the other side same numbers (2 wb) and let's have another rdps in each group of destro
So basically a sorc / squig / magus . Does this additional rdps would make more than 1300 dmg every 3 second (one tick of a keg on 9 target) . A sorc would do way more dmg than the heal of a keg . A tinkerer with 300 Bs and low range would have insignfiant dps so not balancing the rdps on destro side . Sorry i am at work too, cannot write a lot and my English is not good enough to explain everything I think exactly hope you undertand my post

I think you have incorrectly said something though - my situation includes the most basic use of tinkerer, I do not understand why this Engineer is required to have only 300 BS? with just keg picked up, engi can build a strong rifle or grenadier build, the healing numbers I provided are Toolltip listed while wearing Merc gear on a RR 50 engi. That engi could be stacking BS or WS.


Using the comparison you provided, a sorc would be using Pit of Shades from around the corner, similar to how the Napalm would be use to harass the backlines as well as front lines.

Unlike the Kegs, Pit of Shades cannot stack, the reason why is it became OP when involving higher numbers of players.

So once again, I am seeing no reason why there should not be a cap on Keg Stacking.

In fact, it feels like its a great idea to actively test it on the live server with a Stack Limit (Is this technically even possible?)

Pit of Shades/RoF are 80' GTAOE abilities.
Napalm/Mist are 65' GTAOE abilities (that can extend range with the tactic iirc)
Both of these can be used from a relatively safe distance, and were nerfed to limit the targets affected.

You would want to compare PBAOE effects, of which Keg might be the only persistent PBAOE HoT that I know of. Any ranged DPS class limited to using PBAOE effects are already in a heap of trouble. If you get two Sorcs spamming Surging Pain, they would both deal full damage to all targets in the PBAOE. Same with Gunblast, or any other instant AOE. Neither make for good comparisons to Keg as it's a rather unique effect. PoS/RoF are channeled abilities on top of it. Are there any other persistent PBAOE abilities that can be used for comparison?

For the spec issue with a RR50 Rifle picking up Keg, you lose out on the rest of the damage that Grenade would compliment.
RoR.builders - Engineer Rifle+Gren
vs
RoR.builders - Engineer Rifle+Keg

Full Tinkerer spec of course would have far less damage, as you could only go up partially in either of your DPS trees to much less effect as the mastery points scale much better for damage than it does for Keg.

[Thayli]

I'll make a short summary as to what I feel the issues with keg are and leave it at that. This thread is starting to derail a bit and I think I said everything I wanted to. I feel Keg is broken because of these inherent reasons:

1) It is a stackable heal on a ranged DPS class.
I feel this violates the tank-dps-healer trinity. I know every class has a slight self-heal of some sorts, some weaker and some stronger. Magus has a strong self-buff. But Engineer has an AoE, out-of-group, stackable heal that cannot be targeted. This feels like overkill.

2) Compare Shaman's Morale 2 - Mork's Breath.
(Heals your target for 500 every 3 seconds for 9 seconds. Each pulse also heals those around your target within 30ft.) This is basically Keg for 200 heal more per tick but 2 ticks less. Keg heals for a potential 2700 per tick and 13500 total, assuming no critheals. MB heals for a potential 4500 per tick, for a total of 13500 (morales are raw healing and cannot crit as far as I know). The Engineer's fire-and-forget, 100% uptime group heal is the same strength as a Morale 2. It can be argued that this indicates the weakness of MB and not the OP-ness of keg, but I feel it is a good indicator of the status quo and worth bringing up.

3) Given enough Engineers, you can completely negate sustained damage without a healer.
Seeing how a Sorc can kill you in under 3 seconds, lets take a more sustained DPS rotation as an example instead. One that is prevalent on both sides: the AoE cannon. Lets say you are stacked up with only a few people in your keep, and an AoE cannon is hitting you for 900 every 3 seconds. To counteract that damage, you need exactly 3 kegs, given no heal crits. Get hit for 1800 and you need 6 kegs. Engineer is the only class with access to something like this. Seeing how the given playstyle of Engineers is often stacked together on their island with turrets and kegs (which is fine, but this does magnify the issue), this number is fairly attainable. Even more so in keep sieges. Numbers wise, this is the strongest heal on a non-healer class as far as I know.

4) Destruction has no mirror.
I'm not appealing to a class mirror here. But whereas Magus's self-buff is for himself only, Keg is a out-of-group mechanic which treads into the territory of other archetypes. Destruction has nothing like this and therefore Order has an inherent advantage in large numbers when defending in chokepoints in terms of total healing output (potentially 13500 extra healing done per keg placed).

[Sigimund]

I feel this violates the tank-dps-healer trinity.

Healers have DPS specs. Tanks can use 2H. The trinity has never been completely pure and is no worse for it.

[Grunbag]

I'll make a short summary as to what I feel the issues with keg are and leave it at that. This thread is starting to derail a bit and I think I said everything I wanted to. I feel Keg is broken because of these inherent reasons:

1) It is a stackable heal on a ranged DPS class.
I feel this violates the tank-dps-healer trinity. I know every class has a slight self-heal of some sorts, some weaker and some stronger. Magus has a strong self-buff. But Engineer has an AoE, out-of-group, stackable heal that cannot be targeted. This feels like overkill.

2) Compare Shaman's Morale 2 - Mork's Breath.
(Heals your target for 500 every 3 seconds for 9 seconds. Each pulse also heals those around your target within 30ft.) This is basically Keg for 200 heal more per tick but 2 ticks less. Keg heals for a potential 2700 per tick and 13500 total, assuming no critheals. MB heals for a potential 4500 per tick, for a total of 13500 (morales are raw healing and cannot crit as far as I know). The Engineer's fire-and-forget, 100% uptime group heal is the same strength as a Morale 2. It can be argued that this indicates the weakness of MB and not the OP-ness of keg, but I feel it is a good indicator of the status quo and worth bringing up.

3) Given enough Engineers, you can completely negate sustained damage without a healer.
Seeing how a Sorc can kill you in under 3 seconds, lets take a more sustained DPS rotation as an example instead. One that is prevalent on both sides: the AoE cannon. Lets say you are stacked up with only a few people in your keep, and an AoE cannon is hitting you for 900 every 3 seconds. To counteract that damage, you need exactly 3 kegs, given no heal crits. Get hit for 1800 and you need 6 kegs. Engineer is the only class with access to something like this. Seeing how the given playstyle of Engineers is often stacked together on their island with turrets and kegs (which is fine, but this does magnify the issue), this number is fairly attainable. Even more so in keep sieges. Numbers wise, this is the strongest heal on a non-healer class as far as I know.

4) Destruction has no mirror.
I'm not appealing to a class mirror here. But whereas Magus's self-buff is for himself only, Keg is a out-of-group mechanic which treads into the territory of other archetypes. Destruction has nothing like this and therefore Order has an inherent advantage in large numbers when defending in chokepoints in terms of total healing output (potentially 13500 extra healing done per keg placed).

1) afaik magus has another heal ability (50% of his dmg on first tree) so nothing to complain for magus about healing .
2) haven't played a lot shaman but as far I remember MB has a range when keg is deployed at engineer feet with 2 sec cd. Plus you are giving the amount of heal of a tinkerer spec (that spend a lot of points in tinkerer tree) rifleman of grenadier that nly takes keg on tinkerer tree would heal around 220 every 3 seconds so twice less than MB .
3) as I said above , ranged engineer spec doesn't heal 300 every 3 sec so you'll need 4 engineer to cover a canon aoe dmg . And a trio / quatuor of engineer would not be a good exemple on balance discussion . They would have few kills but they won't help their realm winning a zone
4) someone already told me to not appeal for mirroring in a balance thread , but I m sure that many rifleman would trade keg for aegis , don't think aegis is mirrored too, many abilities have no mirror so I don't think that no mirroring keg is an issue.

[Daknallbomb]

I'll make a short summary as to what I feel the issues with keg are and leave it at that. This thread is starting to derail a bit and I think I said everything I wanted to. I feel Keg is broken because of these inherent reasons:

1) It is a stackable heal on a ranged DPS class.
I feel this violates the tank-dps-healer trinity. I know every class has a slight self-heal of some sorts, some weaker and some stronger. Magus has a strong self-buff. But Engineer has an AoE, out-of-group, stackable heal that cannot be targeted. This feels like overkill.

2) Compare Shaman's Morale 2 - Mork's Breath.
(Heals your target for 500 every 3 seconds for 9 seconds. Each pulse also heals those around your target within 30ft.) This is basically Keg for 200 heal more per tick but 2 ticks less. Keg heals for a potential 2700 per tick and 13500 total, assuming no critheals. MB heals for a potential 4500 per tick, for a total of 13500 (morales are raw healing and cannot crit as far as I know). The Engineer's fire-and-forget, 100% uptime group heal is the same strength as a Morale 2. It can be argued that this indicates the weakness of MB and not the OP-ness of keg, but I feel it is a good indicator of the status quo and worth bringing up.

3) Given enough Engineers, you can completely negate sustained damage without a healer.
Seeing how a Sorc can kill you in under 3 seconds, lets take a more sustained DPS rotation as an example instead. One that is prevalent on both sides: the AoE cannon. Lets say you are stacked up with only a few people in your keep, and an AoE cannon is hitting you for 900 every 3 seconds. To counteract that damage, you need exactly 3 kegs, given no heal crits. Get hit for 1800 and you need 6 kegs. Engineer is the only class with access to something like this. Seeing how the given playstyle of Engineers is often stacked together on their island with turrets and kegs (which is fine, but this does magnify the issue), this number is fairly attainable. Even more so in keep sieges. Numbers wise, this is the strongest heal on a non-healer class as far as I know.

4) Destruction has no mirror.
I'm not appealing to a class mirror here. But whereas Magus's self-buff is for himself only, Keg is a out-of-group mechanic which treads into the territory of other archetypes. Destruction has nothing like this and therefore Order has an inherent advantage in large numbers when defending in chokepoints in terms of total healing output (potentially 13500 extra healing done per keg placed).

1) afaik magus has another heal ability (50% of his dmg on first tree) so nothing to complain for magus about healing .
2) haven't played a lot shaman but as far I remember MB has a range when keg is deployed at engineer feet with 2 sec cd. Plus you are giving the amount of heal of a tinkerer spec (that spend a lot of points in tinkerer tree) rifleman of grenadier that nly takes keg on tinkerer tree would heal around 220 every 3 seconds so twice less than MB .
3) as I said above , ranged engineer spec doesn't heal 300 every 3 sec so you'll need 4 engineer to cover a canon aoe dmg . And a trio / quatuor of engineer would not be a good exemple on balance discussion . They would have few kills but they won't help their realm winning a zone
4) someone already told me to not appeal for mirroring in a balance thread , but I m sure that many rifleman would trade keg for aegis , don't think aegis is mirrored too, many abilities have no mirror so I don't think that no mirroring keg is an issue.

Sry But If u rly think magus has Another viable heal abbility u rly know nothing about The classes... And If u dont know something about dont Argument. U need three taktic slots to Make The second heal abbility viable or its useles

[porkstar]

Spoiler:

I'll make a short summary as to what I feel the issues with keg are and leave it at that. This thread is starting to derail a bit and I think I said everything I wanted to. I feel Keg is broken because of these inherent reasons:

3) Given enough Engineers, you can completely negate sustained damage without a healer.
Seeing how a Sorc can kill you in under 3 seconds, lets take a more sustained DPS rotation as an example instead. One that is prevalent on both sides: the AoE cannon. Lets say you are stacked up with only a few people in your keep, and an AoE cannon is hitting you for 900 every 3 seconds. To counteract that damage, you need exactly 3 kegs, given no heal crits. Get hit for 1800 and you need 6 kegs. Engineer is the only class with access to something like this. Seeing how the given playstyle of Engineers is often stacked together on their island with turrets and kegs (which is fine, but this does magnify the issue), this number is fairly attainable. Even more so in keep sieges. Numbers wise, this is the strongest heal on a non-healer class as far as I know.

Is it possible to look deeper into destro mechanics and find a counter-play that order cannot mirror? If this counter-play cannot be found, would it be possible to introduce an adjustment to a destro class, possibly magus that would really only be effective on something like a tank wall in a funnel? The reason I suggest this is because the engie keg only seems to be the biggest problem in lord-room and keep doors when multiple engies can potentially "set and forget" kegs and stack (the degree to which this is a problem is still pending community consensus). I also think the keg is a very unique ability and it should be preserved but, on the same note, destro deserves a counter-play during the aforementioned problematic situations (should community consensus dictate that keg is indeed problematic in these situations).

An example is to look at Magus for a moment. If attackers have have 3 magi with Fiery Winds and Flames Kiss (which is not mirrored on order as far as I know). This is 6 indefensible Flickering Red Fire every 2s. Maybe this doesn't offset 3 kegs but it's a start. Reduce keg heals from nine targets healed to six. This is a small adjustment and starts to level the playing field even more. Possibly then an adjustment to Fiery Winds that will split to a third target if another target is within 5 or 8ft of the second target to which Flickering Red Fire has split. This is problematic and similar to a nuclear arms race, if we give destro some new counter-play, then it would basically require engies to engage in the very behavior that some are trying to discourage or view as problematic.

I guess my point is, (if keg is indeed determined to be problematic by the community) instead of doing the easy thing and pulling out the nerf-hammer (mainly concerned with removing stacking), can we take a broader view and make sure that all possible counter-play options have been determined to be bad options.

Apologies if this post is heading off the rails a bit. Just kind of thinking out loud here.

[Grunbag]

As tinkerer use 3 tactic for having full potential of a keg .

I already made a proposal about keg
Most of you has problem with pugs (mostly snipers) that heal out of party even when they are solo. Some of you complaning about 2/3 snipers assisting each other with kegs on top of keep wall.
I said link keg to turret
1)Keg deployed with Gunturret : makes keg heal only party and non stackable
2)Keg deployed with bombardment turret : makes keg heal 9 target out of party but not stackable
3)Keg deployed with flameturret : same as actual keg heal 9 target out of party stackable.
Keg deployed without a Turret would not change anything as actual keg : if engineer doesn't takes benefits of any turret buff his keg is not debuffed.

This is a personal proposal , I'm not talking for all engineer here maybr all engineer would disagree .
I'm not rifleman or grenadier so I don't know if it would broke their path .
Only think that If tinkerer spec for heal/support (sacrifice BS ,tactic etc) they would take benefits of it .
No one cries when tank spec dps 2 hands since they lose survivability
No one cries when heal spec dps since they lose heal stats
So no one would cry if engineer spec for it , they lose range and dps . (Don't tell me tinkerer are rdps they have the same range as a choppa)

[megadeath]

1) afaik magus has another heal ability (50% of his dmg on first tree) so nothing to complain for magus about healing .

On an ability that does 200 damage on 10 sec cd

4) someone already told me to not appeal for mirroring in a balance thread , but I m sure that many rifleman would trade keg for aegis , don't think aegis is mirrored too, many abilities have no mirror so I don't think that no mirroring keg is an issue.

Aegis has counterplay. Keg doesnt really.

[faiden]

Spoiler:

As tinkerer use 3 tactic for having full potential of a keg .

I already made a proposal about keg
Most of you has problem with pugs (mostly snipers) that heal out of party even when they are solo. Some of you complaning about 2/3 snipers assisting each other with kegs on top of keep wall.
I said link keg to turret
1)Keg deployed with Gunturret : makes keg heal only party and non stackable
2)Keg deployed with bombardment turret : makes keg heal 9 target out of party but not stackable
3)Keg deployed with flameturret : same as actual keg heal 9 target out of party stackable.
Keg deployed without a Turret would not change anything as actual keg : if engineer doesn't takes benefits of any turret buff his keg is not debuffed.

This is a personal proposal , I'm not talking for all engineer here maybr all engineer would disagree .
I'm not rifleman or grenadier so I don't know if it would broke their path .
Only think that If tinkerer spec for heal/support (sacrifice BS ,tactic etc) they would take benefits of it .
No one cries when tank spec dps 2 hands since they lose survivability
No one cries when heal spec dps since they lose heal stats
So no one would cry if engineer spec for it , they lose range and dps . (Don't tell me tinkerer are rdps they have the same range as a choppa)

This is a interesting Idea!

Lets work with:
1)Keg deployed with Gunturret : makes keg heal only the engineer himself and not stack (longer range as with stacks)
2)Keg deployed with bombardment turret : makes keg heal party and not stack (longer range and faster ticks as the turret stack work on damage)
3)Keg deployed with flameturret : Heal 6 players (not party only)+ turret stacks up to 9 (Stackable).
Keg deployed without a Turret: Normal range, normal tick, not stackable.
and ofc Targetable.

And now do the same to Maguses and I feel we got something here!

This makes the keg work like the classes are specced into
The sniper specc gets its selfish heal and some range to kite around
The DoT specc gets the range to kite with and faster ticks.
And the tinker gets its support role and keg.

However im worried that even non tinkers will go for the flame turret in keep defenses.
However that is countered with the low range that they will receive...

[Daknallbomb]

Spoiler:

As tinkerer use 3 tactic for having full potential of a keg .

I already made a proposal about keg
Most of you has problem with pugs (mostly snipers) that heal out of party even when they are solo. Some of you complaning about 2/3 snipers assisting each other with kegs on top of keep wall.
I said link keg to turret
1)Keg deployed with Gunturret : makes keg heal only party and non stackable
2)Keg deployed with bombardment turret : makes keg heal 9 target out of party but not stackable
3)Keg deployed with flameturret : same as actual keg heal 9 target out of party stackable.
Keg deployed without a Turret would not change anything as actual keg : if engineer doesn't takes benefits of any turret buff his keg is not debuffed.

This is a personal proposal , I'm not talking for all engineer here maybr all engineer would disagree .
I'm not rifleman or grenadier so I don't know if it would broke their path .
Only think that If tinkerer spec for heal/support (sacrifice BS ,tactic etc) they would take benefits of it .
No one cries when tank spec dps 2 hands since they lose survivability
No one cries when heal spec dps since they lose heal stats
So no one would cry if engineer spec for it , they lose range and dps . (Don't tell me tinkerer are rdps they have the same range as a choppa)

This is a interesting Idea!

Lets work with:
1)Keg deployed with Gunturret : makes keg heal only the engineer himself and not stack (longer range as with stacks)
2)Keg deployed with bombardment turret : makes keg heal party and not stack (longer range and faster ticks as the turret stack work on damage)
3)Keg deployed with flameturret : Heal 6 players (not party only)+ turret stacks up to 9 (Stackable).
Keg deployed without a Turret: Normal range, normal tick, not stackable.
and ofc Targetable.

And now do the same to Maguses and I feel we got something here!

This makes the keg work like the classes are specced into
The sniper specc gets its selfish heal and some range to kite around
The DoT specc gets the range to kite with and faster ticks.
And the tinker gets its support role and keg.

However im worried that even non tinkers will go for the flame turret in keep defenses.
However that is countered with the low range that they will receive...

and now do it to magus to!

not a bad idea but u cant do the same with magus cause no dps toon can heal another player exept engi