Improving the ST of BW/Sorc.

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Reesh
Posts: 532

Improving the ST of BW/Sorc.

Post#1 » Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:56 pm

This is pretty much a follow up the thread: viewtopic.php?f=75&t=23900&start=90

I shall maintain the format by giving an insight to my ideas how to improve the situation, whilst having in mind the limitations (lack of patcher). I also encourage deeply other skilled bw/sorcs to give their thoughts at what would make those classes better at Single Target, when targeting anything that is in a group.
NOTE: We all know that this class is okaish at pug farming, but it's performance when fighting groups is dire.

1. Identify the issue.
Sorc/BW were struggling at ST department when facing grouped players even before the changes to DoTs, right now they're in pretty bad position.

2. Explain why it's an issue.
Changes to DoTs made half of their ST dps output easily avoidable.

Biggest issue:
*Skills: Word of Pain / Boiling Blood;
and their "small brothers": Slow Boil / Vision of Torment.

Those above are pretty much a mechanic of these classes, they wouldn't work without them. After application and 5s later, they deal X amount of damage. These DoTs are not doing any dmg or significant debuffing whilst on their 5s counter.

With the recent changes they now face 2 defence checks: at application, and before the dmg is about to be applied. Before they were only checked at application.
Issue is that the number of counterplays doubled with how the checks are not being static.

Quick example: DoTs are applied, they will burst in 5s, before they do, enemy player and/or his group team mates buffs up disrupt/block rates, with HTL being the easiest. Not even mentioning the old counters (detaunts, absorbs, cleanses, challenges, preparing spike heals, getting bw/sorc killed). They are getting disrupted easily, and Sorc/BW has lost 2 GCDs not doing anything.
Classes lack sustained damage and at the same time fuel to keep damaging the target effectively, whilst getting defended left and right, thus not being an effective dps.

3. Propose a viable solution to the problem.
These will be a few ideas, but my main purpose is to start the heavily moderated discussion on how to make BW/Sorc a better dps class, if they're still maintaining this mechanic with drawback.

1. Chillwind/Ignite
*buff, by giving them more sustained dmg. Increase the tick speed by 0.25 and allow ticks to procs effects.

2. WoP/BB
*Option 1: Disable second defense check.
*Option 2: Make them uncleansable - if they have to face 2 defense checks, whilst second one can be modified heavily by defending player it doesn't seem that bad.
*Option 3: Both.

3. Slow Boil/Vision of Torment. - Apply option 1 or 2 from above, both, or:
*change them to fast ticking DoTs. From now they tick every 1 second.

4. Shield of Aqshy/Shroud of Darkness - For the next 7 seconds all of your attacks are undefendable, 40ap cost, 1m cd.

Every of the suggestions are not tied together, they can be cherry picked or modified.
Thanks for reading.
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Penril
Posts: 4366

Re: Improving the ST of BW/Sorc.

Post#2 » Tue Nov 21, 2017 1:37 pm

Moving to Discussions.

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Nameless
Posts: 639

Re: Improving the ST of BW/Sorc.

Post#3 » Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:46 pm

Just do not add uncleansable dots, the feeling that u cannot do anything is just wrong approach
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dansari
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Posts: 2355

Re: Improving the ST of BW/Sorc.

Post#4 » Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:47 pm

I don't have much opinion besides the 2nd topic for Word of Pain and Boiling Blood: they should absolutely be cleanseable, so Option 1 is out of the question imo. Option 2 seems like a good QoL change.
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peterthepan3
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Posts: 5413

Re: Improving the ST of BW/Sorc.

Post#5 » Tue Nov 21, 2017 3:20 pm

Agree with making the subsequent tick of WoP/BB undefendable (I believe this should be true of many DoTs, but that's for another proposal/time).
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Pacso
Posts: 40

Re: Improving the ST of BW/Sorc.

Post#6 » Tue Nov 21, 2017 3:40 pm

1. Chillwind/Ignite
*buff, by giving them more sustained dmg. Increase the tick speed by 0.25 and allow ticks to procs effects.

2. WoP/BB
*Option 1: Disable second defense check.
*Option 2: Make them uncleansable - if they have to face 2 defense checks, whilst second one can be modified heavily by defending player it doesn't seem that bad.
*Option 3: Both.

3. Slow Boil/Vision of Torment. - Apply option 1 or 2 from above, both, or:
*change them to fast ticking DoTs. From now they tick every 1 second.

4. Shield of Aqshy/Shroud of Darkness - For the next 7 seconds all of your attacks are undefendable, 40ap cost, 1m cd.

Every of the suggestions are not tied together, they can be cherry picked or modified.
Thanks for reading.
I think the uncleansable (option 2) and undefendable (no secondary defense check) Boiling Blood, Slow Boil would be quite op. What would you do if 2 or more bw-s are focusing on one target? How would you deal with 4+ uncleansable heavy dmg dot?
Anyway bw has smoldering embers tactic, which gives a 25% chance to reapply these dots, if they are removed. (Maybe increase this chance a little bit, or change it to some disrupt strikethrough (and mirror to sorc)?)

Shield of Aqshy/Shroud of Darkness - modifying these lvl 3 core abilites to make all attacks undefendable sounds imbalanced too.
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Toldavf
Posts: 1571

Re: Improving the ST of BW/Sorc.

Post#7 » Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:38 pm

One check per defence type (so block and disrupt in this case) Is good sense. I would support this.

A lack of cleansability inst to awful as these dots are generally heavily buried on a focused target and with that in mind i see absolutely no reason to make them uncleansable.

Chill wind and ignite are already very good with the tactics.

As for suggestion 4 I don't think you should get a free built in land of the dead item in your class. Those items where amazing to have and if they where made available tomorrow the Que outside the tombs would be bonkers
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Bozzax
Posts: 1912

Re: Improving the ST of BW/Sorc.

Post#8 » Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:02 pm

Spoiler:
Why is this to be treated diff then other dots?

Also why is the most broken back loaded timestamp burst ability in the game up for buff??
Explain why you disagree with one/several of the options presented. Or don't post at all. Last time I say this, you have been warned in the past in the BDF for this very same reason.
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Penril
Posts: 4366

Re: Improving the ST of BW/Sorc.

Post#9 » Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:18 pm

My personal opinion on this: I disagree with OP proposal, simply because DoT specs are still kings of pug killing. You only suffer when facing a good premade, which happens like 5% of the time? At that point then yeah: your DoTs get cleansed, and you can't even assist properly on healers due to so much disrupt.

I would much rather prefer tweaking their direct damage and AoE trees in a way to make them more effective against premades. It kinda sucks that all ST specs revolve around Boiling Blood and Word of Pain; i would prefer something similar to what happened with SWs (Assault /Scout got buffed). So I don't know, maybe reworking Shades of Death/Shadow Knives/Neverending Agony (faster cast time, longer range/Undefendable/cast while moving for some DD non-instant skills, etc etc etc) in a way that those who want to be competitive against premades would spec Agony/Destruction.

tl;dr: OP is saying "hey, I want this spec, the one 99% of the players run, to be effective all the time in all situations against all enemies". I am saying "I would prefer coming up with a new spec, fixing/changing some skills, that would be competitive against organized groups".

(this will be my only post as a player)

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Arbich
Posts: 412

Re: Improving the ST of BW/Sorc.

Post#10 » Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:51 pm

Reesh wrote:
1. Chillwind/Ignite
*buff, by giving them more sustained dmg. Increase the tick speed by 0.25 and allow ticks to procs effects.

2. WoP/BB
*Option 1: Disable second defense check.
*Option 2: Make them uncleansable - if they have to face 2 defense checks, whilst second one can be modified heavily by defending player it doesn't seem that bad.
*Option 3: Both.

3. Slow Boil/Vision of Torment. - Apply option 1 or 2 from above, both, or:
*change them to fast ticking DoTs. From now they tick every 1 second.

4. Shield of Aqshy/Shroud of Darkness - For the next 7 seconds all of your attacks are undefendable, 40ap cost, 1m cd.
1. Chillwind/ignite is ok as a cover for your other dots or (with tactic) as a way to debuff your target.
I would say a class without AA is better designed around burst damage, than around sustained dmg.

2. WoP/BB
Option 1: Was like that on live, right? I agree with change.
Option 2: Would be an indirect nerf to DoK M2 Khaines Withrawal, which is a really nice M2 (but must compete with FM). And as it still can be disrupted you can´t rely on it as part of your rotation

Option 4 ;) : Maybe make the increased willpower debuff core of ability, to help against healers and lower the reliance of Fuel to the Fire/Vision of Domination

3. Slow Boil/Vision of Torment
Against it (see Chillwind/ignite). Better balanced around burst, than around sustained dmg

4. Shield of Aqshy/Shourd of Darkness
Don´t think it would be OP per se (unless Point 1-3 would also be implemented), but it would make BW/Sorc a class which once in a minute melt an emeny down and struggles for the rest of the time like now. I would rather see a general improvement of the classes.


other idea:
I think you could rework Smoldering Embers Tactic (11 Point tactic Immolation tree) to "your slow boil reduce the targets chance to defend against your attacks by x%". You would get either this or Burn Through or won´t get your 13 point abilities. I don´t know about Sorc Chilling Gusts tactic and Vision of Torment. How would sorc-builds be, because of their somewhat mediocre Point 13 abilities.
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