Dual Wield and Greatweapon balance

[th3gatekeeper]

As for defensively, comparing the proposed 5% parry to whatever the DW is provided (5%dodge5%disrupt or 5% dodge5%movement etc) I think maybe thats where DW would "stand out more" and provide an advantage against other classes.

Do you want to be a "front lines MDPS"? Then 2H might be better. Or if yo u want to try and go "back lines" then maybe DW is better etc etc. So it has its own "tactics-playstyle" built into the concept of the weapons.

Or we can go the complete opposite direction and do away with both secondary effects of the weapons. Two hander has more burst potential, 2xHand weapons has more sustained damage and better chance of procs. This by itself seems balanced. the 10% parry seems to come in and mess up this balance, and the strikethrough of block is a bit of an after thought. I felt that they achieved the +2S(2h) vs +1 A( 2xwep) perfectly and then decided to get 'mythic fancy'. I dunno.

Yeah we could.... however I do think this is ONE appropriate area to create some unique-ness of weapon types... Also it adds some additional balance to thinks like 2H tanks (if given parry/increase damage).... Since overall 2Hs dont provide as much damage increase > 1hs as would be ideal, or atleast not enough to make it worth while.... So adding passive benefits evens the playing field.

once again the problem

your buffing Chops, slayer and wl
now what gob said, remove the 10% parry and most choppas and stuff will re roll 2h proably
minor nerf to ID slayers....maybe

i honestly would love to try it

gatekeeper is right about the assertion that faster aa and procs alone make dw better but more burst from 2h makes it equal

Buffing Chops/Slayer? Because they would lose 5% parry and gain 5% "armor pen"? So they would be LESS tanky then?
Also WLs attack with spirit damage which isnt impacted by armor pen... So it wouldnt be a huge BUFF there.... and WLs are MAYBE the least populated class right now, so until you start seeing 3+ in every SC (like Sorcs/DoKs are currently) I dont think it would matter much... Also are you saying this in respect to 40/80RR and reflecting on LIVE? Because its been noted in this thread that THIS isnt live... I dont see WLs being insanely overpowered right now...

Chops/Slayer possibly get a small damage increase via armor pen but now are more squishy - losing 5% parry if rerolling 2H. Fine by me. 2H tanks will also hit them MUCH harder and more frequent too.

So overall I really dont see much problem with this since its a pro and a con and its not like we are suggesting (add 20% more damage to 2h!) So its a small approach to balance.

I think the trick is making the DW benefits substantial enough to still want to be used. Also even with a boost to 2h, it frankly still wont compete with damage from DW. If you MERELY removed DW benefits, noone will still want to run 2H weapons since it under performs...

Thats the crux is how do you make them a fair tradeoff? Right now there is NO fair tradeoff

DW > 2H
SnB > 2H

This is an area to modify that. And if people are worried about a SL/CH/WL or whoever else getting a small damage bump, maybe their abilities themselves need to be looked at and knocked down a point or two.... Thats not terribly difficult to do....

I mean how much faster would a SL/CH die with 5% less parry and having 2H tanks hit them 5% harder through their armor? and considering SnB tanks will STILL be insanely tanky..... Its not like SL will melt them more.

ALSO, against squishy targets I would wager any good SL/CH already has enough armor pen to cut through their armor... so its not like itll be a HUGE boost there either.

So I think 5% Parry /5% armor pen seems fair. Or even 5% more crit damage if you want to go that route...

With DW, what benefits would make IT more appealing. Frankly the increase attack speed = more procs = more damage already seems like a fair tradeoff to me when combined with other benefits such as increased dodge/runspeed....

[mursie]

As it stands, block strikethrough might as well not even be on the weapons as it does nothing. 10% parry however is a massive increase in overall defensive capabilities combined with "potential" to do significantly more damage with spells/abilities/prayers that add X damage to each hit.

Thank you for telling me something I already knew and agreed with back on page 11.

And for edification, I didn't present a video of my epic butter knife tales...those were words. Gloriously epic words.

As a side note - what does LARP'ing mean?

[TenTonHammer]

Except not

WL have 1 out of mutiple attacks in their rotation that does spirit dmg? rest all are physical and its not that great unless you got a SM debuffing resists

2H is the prefered playstyle for choppas in parties

furthermore choppa/slayers hardest hitting abilites like deathblow/weaklin killa devestate, spellbreaker all require 2h, their more burst centric abilites require 2h

so we shouldnt give these 3 classes free damage in any when when all their dps output is fine

espically when chop/slayers already stack a lot of armor pen from WS and wl had FO and get bonuses from sets

DW has a faster attack speed and benifits more from procs while 2h has more burst because it has access to more burst centric abilites

that in of its self would make them balanced

if you want more defenses you can stack parry and use def sets

inc in fragility is irrelevent with guard

[ThePollie]

that in of its self would make them balanced

For those classes, at least.

Warrior priests get the shaft, hard, when it comes between 2h vs DW.

Block-strikethrough is absolute trash, and I challenge anyone to prove otherwise.

[TenTonHammer]

that in of its self would make them balanced

For those classes, at least.

Warrior priests get the shaft, hard, when it comes between 2h vs DW.

Block-strikethrough is absolute trash, and I challenge anyone to prove otherwise.

remove block strike through, remove the parry bonus faster AA vs burst is enough

and deal with the cental issues that plague grace WP such a lack luster abilites and tree etc etc

you know what the problems are better than me and you can continue to work them out with AZ once t4 is here

[ThePollie]

remove block strike through, remove the parry bonus faster AA vs burst is enough

and deal with the cental issues that plague grace WP such a lack luster abilites and tree etc etc

you know what the problems are better than me and you can continue to work them out with AZ once t4 is here

I'd happily give up the block-ST if it meant dual-wield didn't gimp me with their free 10% parry, absolutely. I'm sure it'd piss off a lot of people, though.

[Gobtar]

As a side note - what does LARP'ing mean?

Live
Action
Role
Play

[th3gatekeeper]

Except not

WL have 1 out of mutiple attacks in their rotation that does spirit dmg? rest all are physical and its not that great unless you got a SM debuffing resists

Ok so this is kinda funny to me, since when I posted talking about how SMs hardly give any group utility I was met with "NOT TRUE! SM debuffs Spirit which makes WL amazing" But now I hear that its only 1 ability that sucks (meaning noone probably uses it) unless its debuffed then its ok... Considering Ive probably seen maybe 2WLs in SCs.... So now it sounds like I was right in that SMs really dont do anything for the group since noone else uses spirit damage. Good to know.

2H is the prefered playstyle for choppas in parties
furthermore choppa/slayers hardest hitting abilites like deathblow/weaklin killa devestate, spellbreaker all require 2h, their more burst centric abilites require 2h
so we shouldnt give these 3 classes free damage in any when when all their dps output is fine
espically when chop/slayers already stack a lot of armor pen from WS and wl had FO and get bonuses from sets
DW has a faster attack speed and benifits more from procs while 2h has more burst because it has access to more burst centric abilites
that in of its self would make them balanced
if you want more defenses you can stack parry and use def sets
inc in fragility is irrelevent with guard

Ok So this makes more sense now.

Easy solution - Nerf those 2H specific abilities by 5%.

Choppa - "No more Helpin' " Moves from a base of 266 -> 252. "Tired Already" from 166 -> 157.
Slayer - "Spellbreaker" from 216 -> 205. And Devastate from 191 -> 181.

Problem solved.

[TenTonHammer]

I mean like if you have an sm debuffing resists and on top of that popping cd reducer so that it has 0s cd then yes it can be "good"

[Gobtar]

Until such time that a good balance for 10% Parry is reached I think my suggestions is the most fair i.e Remove seconday effects.

There are bonuses and downsides for 2h vs 2xWep but ultimately alot of these Proc vs Spike is relatively balanced, thanks to this thread these are well known now. My Suggestion will mitigate classes that are bound to one weapon option, and classes that have options for both have incentives to take those options in their classes.