[DISCUSSION] Itemization in ROR - Set Bonuses

[wargrimnir]

I don't think that making each piece of gear have it's own "set bonus" individually is a good idea for multiple reasons.

Mainly because it is much harder and time consuming to identify issues and balance each piece of gear individually instead of looking at the entire set at once.

It also makes the gearing part of the game harder to understand for newer players, and that is not something you want imo (This does NOT mean making the game idiot-proof).
You want a gearing system that it's streamlined, easy to understand and efficient but offer enough customization, complexity and freedom to the players to build as close to their idea as possible, and that is what we have right now.

Several times when trying to farm new gear, ill get a new piece but guess what... I cant even use that new piece yet because I need atleast 2, or maybe 3 of that set to replace the lost benefits of losing another set.

I think that is the main reason you feel that way about gearing. The current sets simply cost too much for the average player. Unless you spend 6-7hrs a day for an entire month of grinding Scs, or waiting for zones to cap and hope you got a decent enough contrib and then, if you win a bag, hope Rnjesus decided to give you a piece of gear you need

Currently we have Beastlord, Dominator, Conqueror as the "BiS" sets. 1 of those is gated behind hundreds of hours of mindless SC farming, another is gated behind "Hunting Seasons", and another is gated behind Rng and zone-zerging. This is what is hindering the customization of the characters.

BiS is always going to have some sort of gating so it's not easily acquired.

As we add more and more sets to the game (dungeons? invader > sov?, new random stuff I dream up?), stuff will becomes easier, and the illusion of choice to be competitive will alleviate. However, if your 'choice' boils down to "I need to wear the best stuff", then you're going to be grinding. We've said as much before, nothing has really changed.

Anni/Merc/Ruin, pretty competitive sets at the moment. Rare Fortune is expensive, but you can buy it if you really want to skip up to Conq levels. Beastlord is rather easy to get if you actually communicate with fellow humans, impossible for solo to grind out, which is why it has seasons. Artificial barriers and all that. Considering how easy it is to simply disable the lair bosses, maybe it will switch to every couple of weekends or something of the sort, I would lean towards more gating of BL, not less.

[th3gatekeeper]

I don't think that making each piece of gear have it's own "set bonus" individually is a good idea for multiple reasons.

If this is what came across from what I said, I apologize. This is NOT what I had in mind... I wrote slightly more detailed above as to options how this could work.

I think that is the main reason you feel that way about gearing. The current sets simply cost too much for the average player. Unless you spend 6-7hrs a day for an entire month of grinding Scs, or waiting for zones to cap and hope you got a decent enough contrib and then, if you win a bag, hope Rnjesus decided to give you a piece of gear you need

Currently we have Beastlord, Dominator, Conqueror as the "BiS" sets. 1 of those is gated behind hundreds of hours of mindless SC farming, another is gated behind "Hunting Seasons", and another is gated behind Rng and zone-zerging. This is what is hindering the customization of the characters.

I disagree here, its not really the "cost" or the "time". I am fine with all that stuff. What I dislike is say I want to be a 2H tank... like a Chosen or BG or something.

Its a pretty straight forward "tier" list as to whats BIS for those players. I run around IC, inspect other 2H BGs, or Chosen and lo and behold 90% of our gear is the exact same. Same weapons (generally), same rings (Genesis) same gear (Dominator/Beastlord), etc. There is no "flavor", there is no REAL "choice". Its almost an illusion of choice....

Now, remove set bonuses, and each tank will value various stuff. Some might want max STR/Crit gear... some might stack parry gear, some might want strikethrough etc... You run around IC, I bet you would be hard pressed to find 2 or 3 similar tanks - even if they were all 2H.

The beauty I like in this is... say I valued Parry%, but then wanted to be better at punting, so I swap 2 pieces over to get parry strikethrough or block strikethrough...

Well I DONT really get to do that much now... My stats are chosen for me. Through sheer "set bonuses" because I objectively can say that me having 5% parry from beastlord as a Chosen, if I drop to 4 piece, I lose 5% parry to gain... lets say Dominator Skullcase for 2% block strikethrough... Well its just not worth losing 5% Parry....

But without the set bonuses... Now its a call I get to make. Its sheerly JUST based on the stats of those pieces. We havnt even gotten into discussing all the other NON set gear options that now are viable for builds as well. So going from Beastlord 5 piece to pick up a Dominator piece at the cost of 1 Beastlord piece... Now ALL that matters is the stats on those two pieces.

So basically "do I want to lose resists" and X stats to pick up Y stats and X% blockstrike through.

All set bonuses do, is remove real "choice" from gear and it makes gearing VERY linear. Remove set bonuses and now all the sudden new choices emerge and players will be swapping gear around constantly trying to find the perfect "mix" of stats for their specific build - each person valuing stats differently. You might even see some Lair gear be considered "BIS" for some of ITS bonuses... OR players might choose to wear a Merc piece for a bonus... Etc. Etc.

It gives you SO many new options for gearing... It becomes more fun again (IMO).

[Luuca]

Assumptions:

• The theme here is more choice. Choice of what gear to slot based upon what you are trying to accomplish on your character i.e. stack STR, INIT, %crit, etc.
  
  In Option 1, the proposer notes that by removing the set bonuses he is effectively removing 200+ "stat points" in order to allow players to slot items with the stat points they want - again choice.
  
  In Option 2, he stated he could redistribute those stat points "lost" by removing set bonuses back into the gear proportionate to the set pieces.

Observations:

• Option 1 is a direct nerf to end-game gear and players.
  Option 1 makes Min-Maxing the gearing norm. Min-max gearing, in it's un-checked extreme will destroy the balance of the game.
  Option 1 does have the benefit of lessening the need to grind for BiS gear and makes entry into T4 easier under the OLD ORVR SYSTEM. However, with the advent of the Consolidated Tiers, Bolstering, etc. This one benefit is lessened in importance.
  
  Option 2 simply creates BiS gear without set bonuses, and proliferates the issue this proposal claims to be trying to "fix - Lack of Choice because Set Bonuses = BiS gear.

My final comment on this thread: This proposal, if implemented as Option 1 simply creates an atmosphere wherein min-maxing is the norm for gearing. If implemented as Option 2, encourages min-maxing as the norm, and creates mix-and-match BiS Stat gear, which in turn becomes the only real choice, thus defeating the whole purpose of the proposal.

[Nefarian78]

BiS is always going to have some sort of gating so it's not easily acquired.

As we add more and more sets to the game (dungeons? invader > sov?, new random stuff I dream up?), stuff will becomes easier, and the illusion of choice to be competitive will alleviate. However, if your 'choice' boils down to "I need to wear the best stuff", then you're going to be grinding. We've said as much before, nothing has really changed.

Anni/Merc/Ruin, pretty competitive sets at the moment. Rare Fortune is expensive, but you can buy it if you really want to skip up to Conq levels. Beastlord is rather easy to get if you actually communicate with fellow humans, impossible for solo to grind out, which is why it has seasons. Artificial barriers and all that. Considering how easy it is to simply disable the lair bosses, maybe it will switch to every couple of weekends or something of the sort, I would lean towards more gating of BL, not less.

I understand why and agree that BiS needs to be hard to acquire. but there are some things i do not understand like why there aren't yet low-cost pieces dropped from kills. Most people already have the boots, hands/belt anyway, it doesn't hurt anything to add them, from my point of view. Dropping a piece and then winning it is a massive spike (at least for me) in your "i want to play more" bar. Buying from AH a bit less, but it makes you feel like you're approaching the end and keeps you hooked to the game longer. I think that only this would make many stick to RoR longer and make many players who quit come back

I can kinda see why BL was gated, it's strong and quite easy to obtain, (i still consider it dumb, but it's your choice in the end, and i'll go with it) but i certainly hope that when newer sets from dungeons and invader arrives the gating will be lifted.

I think a gating like that works perfectly with cosmetic stuff, and not on a "real" piece of gear.

[th3gatekeeper]

Assumptions:

• The theme here is more choice. Choice of what gear to slot based upon what you are trying to accomplish on your character i.e. stack STR, INIT, %crit, etc.
  
  In Option 1, the proposer notes that by removing the set bonuses he is effectively removing 200+ "stat points" in order to allow players to slot items with the stat points they want - again choice.
  
  In Option 2, he stated he could redistribute those stat points "lost" by removing set bonuses back into the gear proportionate to the set pieces.

Observations:

• Option 1 is a direct nerf to end-game gear and players.
  Option 1 makes Min-Maxing the gearing norm. Min-max gearing, in it's un-checked extreme will destroy the balance of the game.
  Option 1 does have the benefit of lessening the need to grind for BiS gear and makes entry into T4 easier under the OLD ORVR SYSTEM. However, with the advent of the Consolidated Tiers, Bolstering, etc. This one benefit is lessened in importance.
  
  Option 2 simply creates BiS gear without set bonuses, and proliferates the issue this proposal claims to be trying to "fix - Lack of Choice because Set Bonuses = BiS gear.

My final comment on this thread: This proposal, if implemented as Option 1 simply creates an atmosphere wherein min-maxing is the norm for gearing. If implemented as Option 2, encourages min-maxing as the norm, and creates mix-and-match BiS Stat gear, which in turn becomes the only real choice, thus defeating the whole purpose of the proposal.

Thanks for this, however I think I disagree with your proposal because each person values things differently than others. This is the fundamental key. When talking to various players they each have an idea in their mind of what is a priority, some value certain things over others. A good example is Parry %.

Ive talked to many tanks who say "my goal is X%" and once they get that, they stack other stuff. Ive talked to other tanks who say "I stack ALL I can get". I talk to some tanks who say "forget Parry % I want more Initiative, or Armor, etc.". They are all valuing different stats based on what they deem most important. Some 2H tanks want Strikethrough as a priority over strength so they can punt better. Other tanks just want "DPS" and want to stack Strength/Weapon skill at the cost of tank stats.

Each person has their own preference of whats important. So yes YOU might have "1 optimal setup" that min/maxes all the gear that YOU personally find best... but I would bet my account that not everyone will feel that way and you will start to see more variation in gear.

Also, the value can change over time. A new set comes out, or a new item or piece... maybe a new SET doesnt have to come out but merely new "single pieces" and now it may make you rethink your entire build because now X piece is BIS for the stats you prefer, which means you need to swap out "Y" piece with something else to gain other stats etc. etc... The point is CHOICE.

Also, you might find at various levels of stats, people prefer different things. Like Initiative... At 100 Initiative, someone might prefer 100 stats go to initiative, where as if they have 200 now, they might prefer using the NEXT 100 points is Wounds or Toughness etc... All these are player preference.

Where as right now everything is objective... Go get X set because its the best for your role, spend your RR points on Y because that is too. Set bonuses only limit choice and make releasing NEW gear harder to do without power creep.

Imagine another set coming out, that has the same stat allocation and armor as the current Domi/Conq gear but different stat OPTIONS... Now we have lateral choice without power creep and its still relevant because just given how it works, there WILL be 1-2 pieces that appeal to players that can replace existing stuff they use...

Where as now if a new set comes out, its OBJECTIVELY better than the old one, ALL players must now grind the new set. Example: When Dominator came out, it replaced Mercenary - objectively. Without set bonuses, I can say that there might be 1-2 MErc pieces some might like... ESPECIALLY if they had the same armor values... Well this is what could happen with more sets. Keep the "stat allocation and armor values the same" but just new stat options = more choice + cosmetics and everyone is happy.

[th3gatekeeper]

BiS is always going to have some sort of gating so it's not easily acquired.

Spoiler:

As we add more and more sets to the game (dungeons? invader > sov?, new random stuff I dream up?), stuff will becomes easier, and the illusion of choice to be competitive will alleviate. However, if your 'choice' boils down to "I need to wear the best stuff", then you're going to be grinding. We've said as much before, nothing has really changed.

Anni/Merc/Ruin, pretty competitive sets at the moment. Rare Fortune is expensive, but you can buy it if you really want to skip up to Conq levels. Beastlord is rather easy to get if you actually communicate with fellow humans, impossible for solo to grind out, which is why it has seasons. Artificial barriers and all that. Considering how easy it is to simply disable the lair bosses, maybe it will switch to every couple of weekends or something of the sort, I would lean towards more gating of BL, not less.

Spoiler:

I understand why and agree that BiS needs to be hard to acquire. but there are some things i do not understand like why there aren't yet low-cost pieces dropped from kills. Most people already have the boots, hands/belt anyway, it doesn't hurt anything to add them, from my point of view. Dropping a piece and then winning it is a massive spike (at least for me) in your "i want to play more" bar. Buying from AH a bit less, but it makes you feel like you're approaching the end and keeps you hooked to the game longer. I think that only this would make many stick to RoR longer and make many players who quit come back

I can kinda see why BL was gated, it's strong and quite easy to obtain, (i still consider it dumb, but it's your choice in the end, and i'll go with it) but i certainly hope that when newer sets from dungeons and invader arrives the gating will be lifted.

I think a gating like that works perfectly with cosmetic stuff, and not on a "real" piece of gear.

This is getting off topic. Please take this elsewhere. This thread isnt talking about COST, its talking about set bonuses. Thanks!

[Nefarian78]

Its a pretty straight forward "tier" list as to whats BIS for those players. I run around IC, inspect other 2H BGs, or Chosen and lo and behold 90% of our gear is the exact same. Same weapons (generally), same rings (Genesis) same gear (Dominator/Beastlord), etc. There is no "flavor", there is no REAL "choice". Its almost an illusion of choice....

Now, remove set bonuses, and each tank will value various stuff. Some might want max STR/Crit gear... some might stack parry gear, some might want strikethrough etc... You run around IC, I bet you would be hard pressed to find 2 or 3 similar tanks - even if they were all 2H.

The beauty I like in this is... say I valued Parry%, but then wanted to be better at punting, so I swap 2 pieces over to get parry strikethrough or block strikethrough...

Well I DONT really get to do that much now... My stats are chosen for me. Through sheer "set bonuses" because I objectively can say that me having 5% parry from beastlord as a Chosen, if I drop to 4 piece, I lose 5% parry to gain... lets say Dominator Skullcase for 2% block strikethrough... Well its just not worth losing 5% Parry....

But without the set bonuses... Now its a call I get to make. Its sheerly JUST based on the stats of those pieces. We havnt even gotten into discussing all the other NON set gear options that now are viable for builds as well. So going from Beastlord 5 piece to pick up a Dominator piece at the cost of 1 Beastlord piece... Now ALL that matters is the stats on those two pieces.

So basically "do I want to lose resists" and X stats to pick up Y stats and X% blockstrike through.

All set bonuses do, is remove real "choice" from gear and it makes gearing VERY linear. Remove set bonuses and now all the sudden new choices emerge and players will be swapping gear around constantly trying to find the perfect "mix" of stats for their specific build - each person valuing stats differently. You might even see some Lair gear be considered "BIS" for some of ITS bonuses... OR players might choose to wear a Merc piece for a bonus... Etc. Etc.

It gives you SO many new options for gearing... It becomes more fun again (IMO).

I think something like that could be done with set bonuses so it's much easier to get it working and easier to understand for the players. We just need more sets in order to do it, and there aren't that many yet. ESO does exactly that and the system works perfectly. In ESO there aren't absolute BiS sets, it changes according to your playstyle and where you play. In case you aren't familiar with ESO i suggest you to check it out, because your idea could be simplified a lot without losing it's flavor using a system like that, from my understanding of your posts.

[Haojin]

[quote="Torquemadra"]Set bonuses are a double edged sword, you choose what you want and give up on others. Want main stat and not to use brute force freeing a tactic? You mix and match. Want a particular bonus? You stack the set.

Not going to change[/quote]

[th3gatekeeper]

I think something like that could be done with set bonuses so it's much easier to get it working and easier to understand for the players. We just need more sets in order to do it, and there aren't that many yet. ESO does exactly that and the system works perfectly. In ESO there aren't absolute BiS sets, it changes according to your playstyle and where you play. In case you aren't familiar with ESO i suggest you to check it out, because your idea could be simplified a lot without losing it's flavor using a system like that, from my understanding of your posts.

First, I have played ESO. I agree. It works but only works there because of TONS of sets they offer. In ROR we dont have tons of "similar tier sets" and in order to make it work with set bonuses, like ESO, they would need to release A LOT more sets. Then we would have more choice.

Well what is more work for the devs? removing set bonuses, or adding another 2-3 sets per "playstyle" per class to give more choice?

If they wanted to add another 2 "versions" of say Dominator gear (with different %s and stat allocations) and another 2 versions of Conq gear (again with different %s and allocation) then yeah.. between Ruin/BL/COnqx3/Domi x3 we would have tons of options.

But an EASIER route is just to remove all that. Make each piece valuable. Instead of a 2H tank saying "man I need to grind a **** load of SCs" maybe he only wants 2 Domi pieces.. maybe he wants 2 Conq pieces, and maybe 1-2 BL pieces with a Ruin piece mixed in. Maybe that is "his ideal stat allocation"...

Well now he can get on and do ALL ROR has to offer, rather than saying "nah I am pigeon holed to grinding SCs" because he "doesnt need anything from RVR" or whatever.

And again... I hate running around and seeing 90% of the people all wearing the same gear. Its just boring to me.. Its what kills my desire to play. There isnt any "theorycrafting" that goes into builds anymore because gearing is linear and Set X is objectively better than set Y so I need Set X... I think its just a lazy way to do gear IMO...

[Luuca]

Spoiler:

Assumptions:

• The theme here is more choice. Choice of what gear to slot based upon what you are trying to accomplish on your character i.e. stack STR, INIT, %crit, etc.
  
  In Option 1, the proposer notes that by removing the set bonuses he is effectively removing 200+ "stat points" in order to allow players to slot items with the stat points they want - again choice.
  
  In Option 2, he stated he could redistribute those stat points "lost" by removing set bonuses back into the gear proportionate to the set pieces.

Observations:

• Option 1 is a direct nerf to end-game gear and players.
  Option 1 makes Min-Maxing the gearing norm. Min-max gearing, in it's un-checked extreme will destroy the balance of the game.
  Option 1 does have the benefit of lessening the need to grind for BiS gear and makes entry into T4 easier under the OLD ORVR SYSTEM. However, with the advent of the Consolidated Tiers, Bolstering, etc. This one benefit is lessened in importance.
  
  Option 2 simply creates BiS gear without set bonuses, and proliferates the issue this proposal claims to be trying to "fix - Lack of Choice because Set Bonuses = BiS gear.

My final comment on this thread: This proposal, if implemented as Option 1 simply creates an atmosphere wherein min-maxing is the norm for gearing. If implemented as Option 2, encourages min-maxing as the norm, and creates mix-and-match BiS Stat gear, which in turn becomes the only real choice, thus defeating the whole purpose of the proposal.

Thanks for this, however I think I disagree with your proposal because each person values things differently than others. This is the fundamental key. When talking to various players they each have an idea in their mind of what is a priority, some value certain things over others. A good example is Parry %.

Ive talked to many tanks who say "my goal is X%" and once they get that, they stack other stuff. Ive talked to other tanks who say "I stack ALL I can get". I talk to some tanks who say "forget Parry % I want more Initiative, or Armor, etc.". They are all valuing different stats based on what they deem most important. Some 2H tanks want Strikethrough as a priority over strength so they can punt better. Other tanks just want "DPS" and want to stack Strength/Weapon skill at the cost of tank stats.

Each person has their own preference of whats important. So yes YOU might have "1 optimal setup" that min/maxes all the gear that YOU personally find best... but I would bet my account that not everyone will feel that way and you will start to see more variation in gear.

Also, the value can change over time. A new set comes out, or a new item or piece... maybe a new SET doesnt have to come out but merely new "single pieces" and now it may make you rethink your entire build because now X piece is BIS for the stats you prefer, which means you need to swap out "Y" piece with something else to gain other stats etc. etc... The point is CHOICE.

Also, you might find at various levels of stats, people prefer different things. Like Initiative... At 100 Initiative, someone might prefer 100 stats go to initiative, where as if they have 200 now, they might prefer using the NEXT 100 points is Wounds or Toughness etc... All these are player preference.

Where as right now everything is objective... Go get X set because its the best for your role, spend your RR points on Y because that is too. Set bonuses only limit choice and make releasing NEW gear harder to do without power creep.

Imagine another set coming out, that has the same stat allocation and armor as the current Domi/Conq gear but different stat OPTIONS... Now we have lateral choice without power creep and its still relevant because just given how it works, there WILL be 1-2 pieces that appeal to players that can replace existing stuff they use...

Where as now if a new set comes out, its OBJECTIVELY better than the old one, ALL players must now grind the new set. Example: When Dominator came out, it replaced Mercenary - objectively. Without set bonuses, I can say that there might be 1-2 MErc pieces some might like... ESPECIALLY if they had the same armor values... Well this is what could happen with more sets. Keep the "stat allocation and armor values the same" but just new stat options = more choice + cosmetics and everyone is happy.

Each class has a main stat that contributes to it's effectiveness in the game. When you allow players unlimited access to any gear piece with that stat, in any combination, you are allowing min-maxing. Min-Max players "break" the game because they distort the TTK balance - in either direction.

A blanket statement, betting your account, that no two tanks will be the same is absurd. There will be an identified spec, gearing list, and rotation posted and promoted as the "BiS" by every class. This happens in every game with every class. To say human nature is to not min-max is absurd. This is why Crit% was nerfed in RoR - stacking crit for DPS classes lowered the TTK in the game significantly and destroyed the balance. Crit stacking, under your system, would not only be allowed, it would be a BiS gearing for some classes. This is the best example I can give as to why %crit was moved to 5-piece set bonus and not left at 3-piece.

If you want to be unique, use appearance items. Give up your set bonuses and gear the way you want. Noone is stopping you.