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wildwindblows
Posts: 172

Re: thunderous blow

Post#31 » Wed May 27, 2020 7:40 pm

2H Slayer has really nice brust with exhausive blow abilities and wh has brust when he has x5 finisher. Brust for DW Slayer??? PLS..... Ramapge with ID :O

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teiloh
Posts: 277

Re: thunderous blow

Post#32 » Wed May 27, 2020 7:53 pm

wildwindblows wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 7:25 pm
teiloh wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 6:47 pm
Losing your damage is preferable to dying.

WLs are fine and no one said otherwise. Maras are also fine. The people asking for WL abilities on Marauders are out of line.
Mara nerfed to the ground with tb and pb nerfs. These ppl just want old mara back, nothing more.
WL nerfed to the ground with pet nerfs. "Old mara" would not have the across-the-board contribution boosts. You're not asking for the Old Mara back, you're asking for an overtuned Mara.

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wildwindblows
Posts: 172

Re: thunderous blow

Post#33 » Wed May 27, 2020 8:03 pm

teiloh wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 7:53 pm
wildwindblows wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 7:25 pm
teiloh wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 6:47 pm
Losing your damage is preferable to dying.

WLs are fine and no one said otherwise. Maras are also fine. The people asking for WL abilities on Marauders are out of line.
Mara nerfed to the ground with tb and pb nerfs. These ppl just want old mara back, nothing more.
WL nerfed to the ground with pet nerfs. "Old mara" would not have the across-the-board contribution boosts. You're not asking for the Old Mara back, you're asking for an overtuned Mara.
WL still strong but mara is like a ****. Have you ever played against wl as mara in ranked sc? Play first than we can talk. Everybody knows how wl strong and mara weak.

teiloh
Posts: 277

Re: thunderous blow

Post#34 » Wed May 27, 2020 8:52 pm

wildwindblows wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 8:03 pm

WL still strong but mara is like a ****. Have you ever played against wl as mara in ranked sc? Play first than we can talk. Everybody knows how wl strong and mara weak.
Everyone knows Marauders have always been a strong class since day one and Marauder players are simply lobbying with very shallow "facts" to support their demands.

Foofmonger
Posts: 436

Re: thunderous blow

Post#35 » Wed May 27, 2020 9:02 pm

teiloh wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 6:16 pm

I don't believe I over-value -100% armor pen and a 1k heal over 5 seconds. Even on my Magus, Aegis of Orange Fire saved my ass so many times from simply being an on-demand Wounds buff/Insta heal. Mara proc is far more effective than that, especially while being healed.
Except, it's quite different and I do believe you over-value it. I had a RR100 Magus on live, and I've used both abilities for countless hours, this is not a good comparison.

An instant heal and wounds buff, is functionally nothing like a hot and EHP increase against "some damage". You can use Aegis to prevent being bursted down, on demand, with 1 button click. Monstro proc doesn't work at all like this, and requires you to hit things, get the proc off, stay in Monstro stance, and while in Monstro stance it gives an effective EHP boost (depending on of course, a variety of factors as to what that boost is). They are functionally different and serve wildly different purposes (Aegis is for temporary burst protection, Monstro proc is for being focused fired).

Regardless of Aegis, which is kind of a non-starter here. The reality is that the Monstro proc does two things:

1. It gives a 1k heal over 5 seconds. This is a decent survivability increase that is its strongest the less incoming DPS you have. Of course, this doesn't scale with DPS increases on you, so the 1k heal portion of the proc is by far the most valuable in 1v1, and as you scale up fights, it becomes less and less relevant. Sure, it's always nice to have access to an extra hot on yourself, but once we are talking about combats that start going over 6v6, it just decreases in effectiveness and relevance. You over-value this because you seem to think that being able to slap a single hot on yourself somehow increases your survivability dramatically, and frankly it doesn't except in 6v6 or less content. Go run around ORVR with someone putting a single hot on you to test and see how much longer you live in any decently sized fight, and the answer is usually "not much".

2. -Armor pen is only relevant in some cases, versus some classes. Let's be clear, it does 0 versus magical damage of any sort, it does 0 versus armor debuffs, and it does 0 versus abilities that ignore armor. So in reality, what it usually does is just negate weaponskill. Let's give a hypothetical example:

My not BIS gear mara (Warlord/Invader) has roughly 3400 armor with an 800 pot (I'm not at my PC right now). After let's say a WL armor debuff, I'm going to be around 1900 armor.

Against someone with 25% pen, without monstro proc they will roughly hit me as if I had "2550" armor undebuffed, and "1425" debuffed. So in this example, we see that what Monstro proc is actually doing is giving me roughly an extra 850 "effective" armor versus melee (undebuffed), and an extra " 475" effective armor after the debuff. So, what we can see is a few things, first of all, monstro proc scales the best when you have no armor debuffs on you, which outside of 1v1s, will never happen when people are trying to focus you down with physical damage. In reality, it's effectively netting you something around 400-600 armor (depending on your own armor) versus most people who aren't crazy stacking WS.

Now, If we look at the damage distribution of Order classes, it turns out there's realistically only a single one that can't debuff armor and deals primarily physical damage, the Slayer. Every other class deals magical damage, has an armor debuff, and/or has a semi-spammble armor ignore attack (WH).

So to be clear on the -armor pen proc:

1. It doesn't do anything against a major source of damage: magical.
2. It scales poorly with armor debuffs/armor ignores (ignore is not pen), and there's only a single Order class that can't do this self serve and still does physical damage.
3. In any even semi-organized setting, Slayers will be assiting someone with an armor debuff.

So let's say, in an environment (hypothetical), I'm taking even distribution of magical/non-magical damage 50%/50%. In that same situation, I'm using Monstro proc to up my survivability, and assuming the opponents aren't total trash and can hit their armor deubff, it's effectively giving me an extra 500 armor against non-armor ignoring attacks. Now that's not useless by any means, but that's not "amazing survivability" either. It's a small EHP boost that's not evenly distributed against incoming damage. It's again, at it's peak in specialized 1v1 combat (just like the heal proc), that scales poorly in larger environments.

500 extra armor, and a 200 hps hot, are not worth not being a competitive and damaging MDPS class. If your argument is that this is what prevents the Marauder from being a viable DPS class, than I believe most Marauders would respond with "remove monstro proc, it's not that good".

It's just not that good..... unless you are of course, a Monstro Marauder. If you are already intending to stay in Monstro stance and AoE people down, then the proc is just jelly on top of what you are already doing. But for a Brut/Sav Marauder (which was the premise here?), it's just not great at all and usually the only thing that will happen when you switch to Monstro is that you die 1-2 seconds slower. The amount of times the extra EHP from Monstro allows you to actually come out of a situation you wouldn't have died in anyway is extremely low (assuming you have to swap to it as you are getting focused, again, you can't proc Monstro while being CCed, also, 1v1 you need to proc monstro and then detaunt, as proccing it breaks your own detaunt, also, it only has a 25% chance to proc, so there's also a large chance it takes you 2-5 seconds to even get the **** thing to proc unless you are AoE spamming a clump, hardly "on-demand" when you are being focused fired.

Relying on Monstro proc to save you is like praying to god when you throw a hail mary. It's a risk and a chance and it may not even work, for a Sav/Brut Marauder, it's effectively "give up all your abilities, damage, and utility, for a chance to maybe maybe maybe not die when you probably are gonna die".

All of that being said, Pounce is far better surivavability than Monstro proc, hands down. You know what's better than a slight armor boost? Breaking all of the focus of enemy MDPS because you jumped out of a melee train to saftey.

So, you over-value the survivability of monstro proc greatly. You also under-value the survivability of Pounce greatly. Therefore, the crux of your argument in which "Maras have too much survivability to do MDPS things" but "White Lions are perfectly fine" is completely illogical and delusional, and shows a direct lack of experience with both of the classes you are discussing.

If your argument is that Marauder's have too much survivability to have good damage, then you need to look in a mirror and think about WL's for about 10 seconds.

That ALL being said. I don't want stupid buffs for the Marauder, pounce for the Marauder, nerfs to the WL, or any of this junk suggestions. That is not the point of why I respond to you. I respond to you because you are wrong and act like you are right, and it's just so painfully obvious when you don't know what you are speaking about.

Also, your takes on the Mara class in general are just so off base, it's like you have PTSD from live or something. "Everyone knows the Marauders are fine", is a blatant falsehood and lie, sorry, again you are wrong. As I was recently educated here in ROR by some of the 6v6 community, Marauder's are considered a mediocre at best class in organized 6v6 by the best players on this server, and it's basically considered to be more or less a worthless class that can't really do anything well. Most of the Mara functionality can be replaced by a BG to be frank, and their damage is just not good enough to be viable in that particular environment, now there are of course other environments and other situations where Marauders are better (city is a good example of a great environment for the Marauder, as well as the WL for that matter), but your "hot takes" on the class that you have no experience with are not worth anything.

Telioh, when it comes to the Marauder class. You have absolutely no idea what you are speaking about. That's all, your opinions are not worth anything on this subject.

If you want to keep coming into Marauder discussion threads peddling your nonsense, you will get respomses by my, every single time, telling you that you are wrong and you don't know what you are speaking about, and I can explain in great detail as to exactly why you are wrong and don't know what you are speaking about. You literally thought that TB was a 160 wounds debuff because you get your balance ideas from the career builder because you have no experience. Every time I ask you to provide more data to support your arguments, you provide nothing and go silent. If you want to keep this up, I can go as long as you can, and I can prove my points since I do know what I'm speaking about, and I probably have a few thousand more hours of experience on this subject than you do.

If you want to have OCD when it comes to Marauder balance. It's time for you to put up or shut up. Roll a Marauder, get it to at least idk, RR60? Maybe 65 or so? Then come back and talk about it after you have the slightest amount of first-hand experience. Your arm-chair balance quarterback posts are just shamelessly delusional.
Last edited by Foofmonger on Wed May 27, 2020 9:15 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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wildwindblows
Posts: 172

Re: thunderous blow

Post#36 » Wed May 27, 2020 9:08 pm

teiloh wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 8:52 pm
wildwindblows wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 8:03 pm

WL still strong but mara is like a ****. Have you ever played against wl as mara in ranked sc? Play first than we can talk. Everybody knows how wl strong and mara weak.
Everyone knows Marauders have always been a strong class since day one and Marauder players are simply lobbying with very shallow "facts" to support their demands.
No. Order always whining about marauders and this is why marauders are getting nerfed. This is how game works. TB nerfed, pb nerfed, morale drain nerfed and nothing left. DPS dok and bo is better than mara now and it is okay. DPS BG already cover all mara debuffs very well and has more damage and suvavibility. DESTRO ALWAYS FIND A WAY TO SURVIVE.

Foofmonger
Posts: 436

Re: thunderous blow

Post#37 » Wed May 27, 2020 9:18 pm

teiloh wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 8:52 pm
wildwindblows wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 8:03 pm

WL still strong but mara is like a ****. Have you ever played against wl as mara in ranked sc? Play first than we can talk. Everybody knows how wl strong and mara weak.
Everyone knows Marauders have always been a strong class since day one and Marauder players are simply lobbying with very shallow "facts" to support their demands.
My facts are a helluva lot less shallow than yours, as are my arguments. How the **** can you say that with a straight face? The vast majority of your posts on the subject are 1-2 sentence posts about "how everyone knows" or other worthless platitudes that only exist in your own mind because they are your delusional personal opinions.

No Telioh, you are wrong. You ever notice how you always reference "everyone" except, in the threads you post in nobody agrees with you? No, there is no "everyone", everyone is telling you, that you have 0 idea what the **** you are talking about. There is evidence of it every time you talk about Marauder balance and you have legions of players (Marauder and not) literally telling you, you do not know what you speak of.

There is no grand conspiracy theory going on here in which the Marauder is some kind of "amazing class", and that all Marauder players want "shameless buffs" so they can become "op". There is just one delusional man, who has no personal experience, shouting his worthless opinions even though the entire community is telling him that he doesn't know what he speaks of.

I don't want to have to do this anymore. As I stated in my earlier post, it's time for you to either roll a Marauder and get the smallest amount of experience so you can at least have an educated opinion, or it's time for you to just be quiet and stop peddling your mountains of bullshit. Pick one, or you gonna get constant responses like this. The days of you spouting off uncontested bullshit about the Marauder class on these forums is over, accept your new reality and adapt.

User avatar
wildwindblows
Posts: 172

Re: thunderous blow

Post#38 » Wed May 27, 2020 9:39 pm

Foofmonger wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 9:18 pm
teiloh wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 8:52 pm
wildwindblows wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 8:03 pm

WL still strong but mara is like a ****. Have you ever played against wl as mara in ranked sc? Play first than we can talk. Everybody knows how wl strong and mara weak.
Everyone knows Marauders have always been a strong class since day one and Marauder players are simply lobbying with very shallow "facts" to support their demands.
My facts are a helluva lot less shallow than yours, as are my arguments. How the **** can you say that with a straight face? The vast majority of your posts on the subject are 1-2 sentence posts about "how everyone knows" or other worthless platitudes that only exist in your own mind because they are your delusional personal opinions.

No Telioh, you are wrong. You ever notice how you always reference "everyone" except, in the threads you post in nobody agrees with you? No, there is no "everyone", everyone is telling you, that you have 0 idea what the **** you are talking about. There is evidence of it every time you talk about Marauder balance and you have legions of players (Marauder and not) literally telling you, you do not know what you speak of.

There is no grand conspiracy theory going on here in which the Marauder is some kind of "amazing class", and that all Marauder players want "shameless buffs" so they can become "op". There is just one delusional man, who has no personal experience, shouting his worthless opinions even though the entire community is telling him that he doesn't know what he speaks of.

I don't want to have to do this anymore. As I stated in my earlier post, it's time for you to either roll a Marauder and get the smallest amount of experience so you can at least have an educated opinion, or it's time for you to just be quiet and stop peddling your mountains of bullshit. Pick one, or you gonna get constant responses like this. The days of you spouting off uncontested bullshit about the Marauder class on these forums is over, accept your new reality and adapt.
I have rr 85 x5sov x2 sentinel x2 warlord mara so I can assume that I have end game stuff however my damage is really low compared to other dps classes. Also, sav/brut mara is not survivable as most of the ppl think. You can be tanky if you want if you stack armor/toughness and go monstro stance but in this way your damage will impresively decrease. I've a reason to write comment here but Telioh really trying to ruin this topic. I'm still thinking sav/brut mara need adjustments.

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teiloh
Posts: 277

Re: thunderous blow

Post#39 » Wed May 27, 2020 9:44 pm

Foofmonger wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 9:02 pm
...
Your dismissal of -100% armor pen is extremely tortured and disingenuous. First, Torment is not all of a WH's DPS. For a Judgment specced WH, it's probably 30-35% of their overall DPS and 40-45% of their physical DPS *if* they're attacking you from behind.

Second, your arbitrary reductionist plea to "effective armor" devalues ALL +armor abilities. "500-600 effective armor" is better than any armor buff or pot in the game by your own math and reckoning. A full suit of 300 gold armor talismans is "500-600 effective armor." The baseline difference between a Bright Wizard and medium armor class is "500-600 effective armor." You challenged me to play solo and judge how much a "single HoT" difference is. The difference is ENORMOUS. This is why I pre-hot on my healer. This is why people spend thousands of gold on HoT potions. This is why Engineers spec Bugman's Best even though the ability is objectively trash 90% of the time. A small hot can easily take you out of one-shot risk, slow-down, and execute zones. It increases your life expectancy significantly. All of these broaden your options for play. My entire point was that yes, the effective equivalent of +150-300 wounds over the average engagement is significant. Otherwise no one would bother suiting for Wounds. Otherwise we wouldn't even have this entire thread crying about the loss of 60-80 effective wounds debuff.

Third, you're ignoring the abilities that specifically increase armor pen, e.g Eng and WH.

Fourth, the assumption of "25% pen" is hilariously underestimated. My fresh 40 Engineer has 25% pen without even trying. Go look at the threads where Destro is whining about Rampage - they are claiming that Slayers and WL run 55-60% passive pen *easily*. So the reality is, with a 1900 debuffed armor in your example, you have 40-50% mitigation whereas a WL that has been armor debuffed will have an effective 850 armor or less than 20% mitigation. And that's assuming no one is curing anything.

The point is, the Monstro proc is good enough to be a reliable difference between life and death.
so there's also a large chance it takes you 2-5 seconds to even get the **** thing to proc unless you are AoE spamming a clump
At 25% proc rate, it's rare that it won't be up within 2 seconds of single targeting someone.
All of that being said, Pounce is far better surivavability than Monstro proc, hands down. You know what's better than a slight armor boost? Breaking all of the focus of enemy MDPS because you jumped out of a melee train to saftey.

If your argument is that Marauder's have too much survivability to have good damage, then you need to look in a mirror and think about WL's for about 10 seconds.
No one argued against Pounce's effectiveness. Keep in mind, survivability isn't the only thing Mara's have over WLs, and the Monstro proc isn't the Mara's only survivability advantage over a WL.
Marauder's are considered a mediocre at best class in organized 6v6 by the best players on this server
This is the server that got embarassingly dominated by Bright Wizards pressing one button and a 1200 damage point blank M2, I would question these "experts"
Telioh, when it comes to the Marauder class. You have absolutely no idea what you are speaking about. That's all, your opinions are not worth anything on this subject.
Rather, I've shown I know far better than most Marauders here. You tried to debate me based on flawed hypotheticals (25% armor pen? 50/50% melee/magic? really?) and did not succeed. Feel free to post Marauder damage numbers if you want to actually argue that Marauders don't have enough burst. And since we're playing this game, go ahead and post them for ALL physical DPS you play. The community does actually need this data badly, so thank you for volunteering.
You literally thought that TB was a 160 wounds debuff because you get your balance ideas from the career builder because you have no experience
Uh, pretty sure that was a different poster. I'm well aware that it got nerfed here: https://wiki.returnofreckoning.com/inde ... ss_Changes
Last edited by teiloh on Wed May 27, 2020 9:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.

teiloh
Posts: 277

Re: thunderous blow

Post#40 » Wed May 27, 2020 9:46 pm

Foofmonger wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 9:18 pm
teiloh wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 8:52 pm
wildwindblows wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 8:03 pm

WL still strong but mara is like a ****. Have you ever played against wl as mara in ranked sc? Play first than we can talk. Everybody knows how wl strong and mara weak.
Everyone knows Marauders have always been a strong class since day one and Marauder players are simply lobbying with very shallow "facts" to support their demands.
My facts are a helluva lot less shallow than yours, as are my arguments. How the **** can you say that with a straight face? The vast majority of your posts on the subject are 1-2 sentence posts about "how everyone knows" or other worthless platitudes that only exist in your own mind because they are your delusional personal opinions.

No Telioh, you are wrong. You ever notice how you always reference "everyone" except, in the threads you post in nobody agrees with you? No, there is no "everyone", everyone is telling you, that you have 0 idea what the **** you are talking about. There is evidence of it every time you talk about Marauder balance and you have legions of players (Marauder and not) literally telling you, you do not know what you speak of.

There is no grand conspiracy theory going on here in which the Marauder is some kind of "amazing class", and that all Marauder players want "shameless buffs" so they can become "op". There is just one delusional man, who has no personal experience, shouting his worthless opinions even though the entire community is telling him that he doesn't know what he speaks of.

I don't want to have to do this anymore. As I stated in my earlier post, it's time for you to either roll a Marauder and get the smallest amount of experience so you can at least have an educated opinion, or it's time for you to just be quiet and stop peddling your mountains of bullshit. Pick one, or you gonna get constant responses like this. The days of you spouting off uncontested bullshit about the Marauder class on these forums is over, accept your new reality and adapt.
Go ahead and quote a non-Mara player disagreeing with me, or I'll just assume it's you misattributing posts between users once again.

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