Balance Discussion forums are now Open

[dansari]

Just make it so that only tanks can get RD, only DPS can get CW, and only healers can get QE. There, now we can get back to what really matters: why destro tanks look much cooler than order tanks (except for Ironbowls IB he sexy).

[Rozackroo]

Not here to start a flame war just point out some hypocrisies....

Renown ability + Renown ability + Racial tactic = stacking
Cleansing wind + quick escape + Run away tactic

Once these things proc, good luck catching anything.

Well doesn't stack anymore how about you get your facts right before posting. +A cc immunity with 2 min cooldown is not too strong if you invest so many points in. Oh no i have to wait with my rkd 15s before I can use it oh no.....wow really

Yes if you use all cds, rd, cw and get a qe proc you can probabbly escape as destro. Good that order can mostly just walk away since there is no reliablel rcc outside of snare/morales on destro.

[xanderous]

Not here to start a flame war just point out some hypocrisies....

Renown ability + Renown ability + Racial tactic = stacking
Cleansing wind + quick escape + Run away tactic

Once these things proc, good luck catching anything.

Well doesn't stack anymore how about you get your facts right before posting. +A cc immunity with 2 min cooldown is not too strong if you invest so many points in. Oh no i have to wait with my rkd 15s before I can use it oh no.....wow really

Yes if you use all cds, rd, cw and get a qe proc you can probabbly escape as destro. Good that order can mostly just walk away since there is no reliablel rcc outside of snare/morales on destro.

What do you mean dos not stack anymore, please be more specific, do you mean quick escape + run away tactic, could you reference the forum post that proves this, first i am hearing of this.

Destro have plenty of knockbacks, snares, knockdowns what they don't have is ranged knockdowns and i have no problem them getting any, just as long as order can have some juicy moral gain tactics :p

[Panzerkasper]

What do you mean dos not stack anymore, please be more specific, do you mean quick escape + run away tactic, could you reference the forum post that proves this, first i am hearing of this.

Destro have plenty of knockbacks, snares, knockdowns what they don't have is ranged knockdowns and i have no problem them getting any, just as long as order can have some juicy moral gain tactics :p

It doesnt stack since it the live servers if i remember correctly.

Morale tactic is overrated, i stated this many times and since i play a chosen is know first hand.

[Morf]

Rd + Cw just shouldnt exist and i say this as someone who uses/abuses them (depending on how you look at it) however both paper over the cracks of some imbalance.

Correct me if im wrong but i dont think Rd +Cw existed before the CC change patch back on live so there was less emphasis on dps CC meaning death(the cc patch that caused outrage at the time).
If all non tank CC duration were to be how it was pre CC patch then Rd would be less important and would also make you think twice about which class and what type of CC you want to use instead of KD being king and disarm/silence being pointless 90% of the time, this would also add more meaning to well played tanks and squash the rkd dispute.

What also gets under ppls skin is the CC - zerg, this more than any other type of CC is seen with eye shot, stop drop and roll, flames of fate and ensnare so you can imagine this happens more to destro then it does to order, counter argument is " destro have run away" but rkd doesnt just work on gobbos with run away active.
Anyone who has experienced with bw/sw/wl/mara will know how deadly rkd and m1 root is in terms of guaranteeing a kill when used correctly, imo old cc durations fixes rkd debate then all needs addressing is how to deal with ensnare and fof and you can get rid of RD.

Also what we are missing is sov 8th piece set bonuses which have a similar impact to Rd/Cw but require good coordination to use them effectively and also bring more focus on group play.

Lastly the order v destro debate its always the grass is greener on the other side, morale boost - crit buffs, run away - catching kiter potential, most stuff overall is balanced, destro has X order have Y, as much as we all complain about certain **** the game is more balanced overall than any other pvp mmo i have played.

[Valfaros]

Lastly the order v destro debate its always the grass is greener on the other side, morale boost - crit buffs, run away - catching kiter potential, most stuff overall is balanced, destro has X order have Y, as much as we all complain about certain **** the game is more balanced overall than any other pvp mmo i have played.

Well both sides have their strenghs yes but to call warhammer a balanced game is funny to me. You only can call warhammer the most balanced MMO if you only played warhammer. Even arena in wow was more balanced then this game let me tell you why I think like that.

Warhammer only works in very specific settings and if you dare move away from this just a bit you will face serious weaknesses maybe even impossible odds depending on your setup. Example let's say you run 6 dps classes vs 2:2:2 setup who will win? Now you might say oh this is unfair nobody will run 6 dps classes and think this should be balanced okay. In wow running only dps was when I played (long way back in bc) a viable option you couldn't run 6 of em because that's not a suported format but you could run 5 of em vs a balanced team and actually had a chance. Here not so much.
Now let's compare the most close setup 2:2:2 vs 2:2:2 same setup same mirrors is it balanced to run 2 wls vs 2 marauders? Still not? Ow boy even running mirror classes isn't perfectly balanced how can you call this game has the best balance when each and every mirror isn't.
This is why warhammer failed so hard it's impossible to get there no matter what you do. If you compare this to any other game where such a almost mirror isn't the case you will have perfect balance when people run the same classes same specs and the only thing that matters then is skill. What people however want by a balanced game is several viable classes in several viable setups with preferably several possible class specific specs. Most MMO's have their difficulties with this GW2 does a quite good job at this in my opinion. Most classes are used in pvp with tons of setups and several class specific specs.

It's true there will always be just one meta. In warhammer what the meta is, is extreamly clear especially on destro. On order there a therefore a few options trying to kill that meta and I heared slayer with sw was a fairly good setup to beat it but still calling it balanced is wishful thinking.

In shord: In no other game I have seen are you punished so harshly when moving away from meta setups. You can like the fact that you always play in a certain setup but by the number of premades out there show that there aren't many of them. People play what they like and not what the game is tring to push on them.

Btw bringing up that suboptimal premades do good against pug's will not change any of this. Suboptimal premades will be wooped just as hard against optimal premades as they woop pug players (who have no composition at all respecivly: no healer no guarding tank).

[GodlessCrom]

Arena in WoW was literally defined by meta teams and group comps. And outside of Blizzard's designated comp format (3v3), balance was utter nonsense (they didn't even try). I would not use WoW as benchmark for balance. There were a few seasons that came close to balance, in BC and Wrath and maybe MoP IIRC, but for the most part it was meta comps stomping everyone, with certain classes almost never going out of style and others almost never achieving viability (frost mage, resto druid, and arms warrior were always top tier, though not necessarily together; whereas stuff like ret paladin or ele/enh shaman were largely non-viable except for certain niche comps. though. there was the odd seasons where ret paladin and ele/enh shaman were, conversely, faceroll easy).

I think the biggest problem with these discussions is lack of data. We're a small server, and the amount of players trying to min-max is relatively low. This isn't helped by the rate at which competitive players either burnout or get themselves banned for whatever reasons. So a lot of the discussion takes place in theorycraft land, where anything and everything is possible if you BS hard enough. There are almost certainly group comps that are effective that no one, or few people, use because there just isn't enough time or interest to try them out. I feel like it makes the meta look a lot more rigid than it truly is simply because there isn't much of a meta at all. Most groups, mine included, aren't competitive either due to lack of interest/time (we all got jobs, and can't necessarily play at the same time) or lack of manpower (would be awesome to try out different comps, but if all we got on is 2h IB, snb SM, a white lion, a BW and two AMs, that's what we're running).

So I understand where you're coming from with the frustration regarding deviation from the meta, but I really do think it comes from a lack of data/participation among the playerbase as much as it does from actual underlying issues with game balance.

[dansari]

Morale tactic is overrated, i stated this many times and since i play a chosen is know first hand.

Are chosen running this or are they getting morale fed from other places? Because you say it's overrated but the majority of scenarios I play with my SM, the opposing tanks will hit M4 and I'm just getting M2.

[Morf]

Well both sides have their strenghs yes but to call warhammer a balanced game is funny to me. You only can call warhammer the most balanced MMO if you only played warhammer. Even arena in wow was more balanced then this game let me tell you why I think like that.

I can assure u warhammer isnt the only game i have played, its the only game i have bothered to stick with tho, not for one minute saying all is perfect, there are issues but nothing that isnt fixable with a few tweaks where as other games that i have found the pvp to be enjoyable would need alot more then a few tweaks to bring balance, ESO for one.

Never played wow doesnt interest me the slightest so i wouldnt know.

[Valfaros]

Arena in WoW was literally defined by meta teams and group comps. And outside of Blizzard's designated comp format (3v3), balance was utter nonsense (they didn't even try). I would not use WoW as benchmark for balance. There were a few seasons that came close to balance, in BC and Wrath and maybe MoP IIRC, but for the most part it was meta comps stomping everyone, with certain classes almost never going out of style and others almost never achieving viability (frost mage, resto druid, and arms warrior were always top tier, though not necessarily together; whereas stuff like ret paladin or ele/enh shaman were largely non-viable except for certain niche comps. though. there was the odd seasons where ret paladin and ele/enh shaman were, conversely, faceroll easy).

This is not what I ment and I just used wow becasue that was the first thing that came to mind. It was to show that any other game doesn't have this mirror problem warhammer has which is why balance here is so hard.

It was to show furthermore that certain extremes tend to even work in this game which is far from balanced which is why it was funny to me to call warhammer the best balanced MMO. In my opinion (and at that time) wow was still doing better (maybe it was easier to balance) then warhammer does. In warhammer it's not possible to run without tanks (or very bad if you do) in warhammer it's not possible to run without healers (or very bad if you do). Warhammer has many restrictions to what you have to run whereas many other games are more open. Almost every class has at best 1 build which is good and everything else is completly bs in warhammer.
You can take most other MMO's and you will find higher variety in setups then you will find in warhammer just because warhammer puts so many restrictions on what you need in a grp. You can like that it is the way it is but you can't call it a good balance when most setups are bs. Well you can call it balanced when you define balance that one comp. on one side is equally good than one comp. on the other side but then pretty much every game on the planet is balanced making the word meaningless.

Well both sides have their strenghs yes but to call warhammer a balanced game is funny to me. You only can call warhammer the most balanced MMO if you only played warhammer. Even arena in wow was more balanced then this game let me tell you why I think like that.

I can assure u warhammer isnt the only game i have played, its the only game i have bothered to stick with tho, not for one minute saying all is perfect, there are issues but nothing that isnt fixable with a few tweaks where as other games that i have found the pvp to be enjoyable would need alot more then a few tweaks to bring balance, ESO for one.

Never played wow doesnt interest me the slightest so i wouldnt know.

I don't say you can't fix things by brining classes in line but atm they are not close and I'm not so sure if it's that easy to do too.