Patchnotes 15/12/16

[roadkillrobin]

IF the project dies it dies, Then there no longer a need for people playing the game so it doesn't really nather, But aslong as there are need of player you can't really expect em to just take anything. Especially when we're talking about such vast anount of time and there's no respect for the time put into it. Then you can't expect the respeect back either

Are you really comparing the time you spent PLAYING the game with the time the devs spent working on it?

Well your team isn't consistant at all. You call us testers fore sake of some arguments and and then call us nothing but players on others. This is getting really frustrating and this tactical argumentation is pretty low tbh. Arn't we testers first and players second? I've never said anything about comparing our time in the game with devs working on it. Strawman. I said if the time investment spent progressing in this game isn't respected then don't expect any respect back either. Basicly: They will leave the game if you change a class to a point were they don't enjoy it anymore wich they've spent a vast amount of time on, I don't belive you find this hard to understand. I also listed some sugestion on how to avoid this happening.

[RyanMakara]

IF the project dies it dies, Then there no longer a need for people playing the game so it doesn't really nather, But aslong as there are need of player you can't really expect em to just take anything. Especially when we're talking about such vast anount of time and there's no respect for the time put into it. Then you can't expect the respeect back either

Are you really comparing the time you spent PLAYING the game with the time the devs spent working on it?

Well your team isn't consistant at all. You call us testers fore sake of some arguments and and then call us nothing but players on others. This is getting really frustrating and this tactical argumentation is pretty low tbh. Arn't we testers first and players second? I've never said anything about comparing our time in the game with devs working on it. Strawman. I said if the time investment spent progressing in this game isn't respected then don't expect any respect back either. Basicly: They will leave the game if you change a class to a point were they don't enjoy it anymore wich they've spent a vast amount of time on, I don't belive you find this hard to understand. I also listed some sugestion on how to avoid this happening.

I wouldn't expect people to enjoy their class anymore when it becomes more complicated to play. It requires you to re-learn a class's playstyle, which you may have been used to for years. How do we determine the point where a class is both fair AND enjoyable to play, and who exactly gets to make this determination? Obviously it is up to the devs, and the best way to ensure the balance versus enjoyment is satisfied to both parties, is to offer constructive feedback rather than pointing out all the negative aspects to change. It will, ironically, change nothing about the situation.

We honestly have to break away from a bitch-and-whine mentality. The majority of people involved in this project are not within this grouping, but the few sore thumbs out there aren't making devs any more likely to change the game for the better. On the contrary. Use actual thought, reasoning, logic, and basic human decency, and we may get somewhere we all want to be.

[Yaliskah]

They will leave the game if you change a class to a point were they don't enjoy it anymore wich they've spent a vast amount of time on, I don't belive you find this hard to understand.

Not thats completely understandable roakillrobin. And -i think- we all understand this.

Now expectations are very high, pressure (for us) is maximal. It is all about passions and frustrations, on both sides. Many people choose to forget we are not pros, that RoR is a mega work in progress, and that more than anyone, we are involved to make it work since 3 years, that we can't give the perfect answer to a given issue in first shot or in the hour, that we can't do what anyone wants, that... ( loooooong list). We can't provide an instant perfect version of the game atm, which doesn't mean, we won't.

Thats said.

[roadkillrobin]

By the way, the funniest thing about roadkillrobin's post is that the devs could say the exact same thing. Why should we develop this game any further if all we get is whine posts over a misplaced sense of nostalgia to justify an anti-change stance? There are many things in this game requiring fixes and tweaks, and we're basically still up **** creek with a broken paddle here.

Why are you taking it as whining?
I'm just explaining on regard of Zumos post why people leave the game when you are are drasticly changing something about that game wich people love or don't agree with They spent shitload of time in a game, wich is basicly all about progression and now you changed it to something they don't like. So now they weigh between spending that time again on another toon with the risk of same thing happen to that one, or leave. The lack of insurance here will make em leave.

[TenTonHammer]

Arn't we testers first and players second?

If that were really the case then why does the playerbase as a whole not act as such cause i can guarantee you right now that a vast majority of them think of them selves as nothing more than players who think RoR is just going to be a carbon copy of WAR and that the term ALPHA PHASE don't mean EVERYTHING is subject to change

A pity that all these people will leave because their ez mode fundamentally broken class that is DoK and WP will be changed in an attempt to make the classes WHAT THEY WERE MENT TO BE, front line melee healers

if these people want to get worked up and leave then thats on them, showing that they only wanted a class that was low risk and high reward

[Thayli]

Is it really necessary to generalize this? Because there are quite some people who do take things seriously. People who do test bugs, are active in (proper) discussions, post on the bugtracker and whatnot. This feels a little disrespectful, to be honest. We do know it's not the same as the investment as you guys put in to it, but it would be nice if the staff could stop hitting us round the head with that fact. Because a lot of us do try.

Those whom do, know the comment wasnt directed at them and are well aware that it was rather, pointed at the entitled traditionalist gits who are too afraid of change and attempts at real balance that decry everything with "muh nostalgia"

That's not the point, it's just getting incredibly tiring to just keep reading this over and over. I know it's not the intent of the staff to demotivate people, but this kind of posting does just that.

No matter how many times the words "alpha" and "testing" gets thrown around, it would be nice if time put in by players would at least be acknowledged. Asking for a return on renown when large changes get implemented without warning is not unreasonable I feel. Can things like this at least be discussable without being placed in the "whine" camp, please?

[RyanMakara]

Why are you taking it as whining?
I'm just explaining on regard of Zumos post why people leave the game when you are are drasticly changing something about that game wich people love or don't agree with They spent shitload of time in a game, wich is basicly all about progression and now you changed it to something they don't like. So now they weigh between spending that time again on another toon with the risk of same thing happen to that one, or leave. The lack of insurance here will make em leave.

T'is an alpha game, expect change. I recall an argument from the earliest days of this server, when people were exclaiming their time spent here 'testing' should mean something. It is your own, personal choice to dedicate your time and effort to this game. It is free of charge, with the possibility of having your voice heard in development changes. We are not holding you at gunpoint.

Your 'progression' argument makes zero sense to me, by the way. Do you mean progression in terms of levels and gear, or development progression? Level and gear progression are still a work in progress (most of which is skippable/braindead atm) and overall development is halted by the limit of resources and dedication of time and effort on behalf of the dev team. Also, I don't like your slippery slope fallacy. Just because class X gets changed doesn't mean class Y and Z are next. The balance of power between all classes is always fluctuating, but not to such a severe degree.

[RyanMakara]

Is it really necessary to generalize this? Because there are quite some people who do take things seriously. People who do test bugs, are active in (proper) discussions, post on the bugtracker and whatnot. This feels a little disrespectful, to be honest. We do know it's not the same as the investment as you guys put in to it, but it would be nice if the staff could stop hitting us round the head with that fact. Because a lot of us do try.

Those whom do, know the comment wasnt directed at them and are well aware that it was rather, pointed at the entitled traditionalist gits who are too afraid of change and attempts at real balance that decry everything with "muh nostalgia"

That's not the point, it's just getting incredibly tiring to just keep reading this over and over. I know it's not the intent of the staff to demotivate people, but this kind of posting does just that.

No matter how many times the words "alpha" and "testing" gets thrown around, it would be nice if time put in by players would at least be acknowledged. Asking for a return on renown when large changes get implemented without warning is not unreasonable I feel. Can things like this at least be discussable without being placed in the "whine" camp, please?

Nobody is exclaiming whine over a potential renown wipe. There will definitely be whine if this were to happen, be it in advance notice with a chance of discussion or not. Even with the most reasonable basis of wiping (early day gold/item exploits), there will be threads left, right and center about quitting and destruction of player motivation. It's normal in an alpha game.

[Druin]

Is it really necessary to generalize this? Because there are quite some people who do take things seriously. People who do test bugs, are active in (proper) discussions, post on the bugtracker and whatnot. This feels a little disrespectful, to be honest. We do know it's not the same as the investment as you guys put in to it, but it would be nice if the staff could stop hitting us round the head with that fact. Because a lot of us do try.

Those whom do, know the comment wasnt directed at them and are well aware that it was rather, pointed at the entitled traditionalist gits who are too afraid of change and attempts at real balance that decry everything with "muh nostalgia"

That's not the point, it's just getting incredibly tiring to just keep reading this over and over. I know it's not the intent of the staff to demotivate people, but this kind of posting does just that.

No matter how many times the words "alpha" and "testing" gets thrown around, it would be nice if time put in by players would at least be acknowledged. Asking for a return on renown when large changes get implemented without warning is not unreasonable I feel. Can things like this at least be discussable without being placed in the "whine" camp, please?

I am not throwing it around at all. I rarely really read the forum lately exactly because of stuff like this. Yes this is an alpha and you are considered testers first, but in reality the majority isn't actually testing. It's fine to just play the game and we are very grateful for people who actively report bugs and help us with constructive critisism.

But don't blame me for pointing this out, when we have people telling us Aza can't expect respect for the thousands of hours he spent coding because we don't respect the time you spent farming renown.

[Thayli]

Spoiler:

Those whom do, know the comment wasnt directed at them and are well aware that it was rather, pointed at the entitled traditionalist gits who are too afraid of change and attempts at real balance that decry everything with "muh nostalgia"

That's not the point, it's just getting incredibly tiring to just keep reading this over and over. I know it's not the intent of the staff to demotivate people, but this kind of posting does just that.

No matter how many times the words "alpha" and "testing" gets thrown around, it would be nice if time put in by players would at least be acknowledged. Asking for a return on renown when large changes get implemented without warning is not unreasonable I feel. Can things like this at least be discussable without being placed in the "whine" camp, please?

Nobody is exclaiming whine over a potential renown wipe. There will definitely be whine if this were to happen, be it in advance notice with a chance of discussion or not. Even with the most reasonable basis of wiping (early day gold/item exploits), there will be threads left, right and center about quitting and destruction of player motivation. It's normal in an alpha game.

I meant roadkillrobin's argument of, when for example DoK/WP got changed, all the people who invested in that class as a backline healer sort of got screwed over in terms of time invested in that class. If I understood correctly, he pointed out that a renown "refund" for another class might be in order. Not a total renown wipe or anything.

Spoiler:

Those whom do, know the comment wasnt directed at them and are well aware that it was rather, pointed at the entitled traditionalist gits who are too afraid of change and attempts at real balance that decry everything with "muh nostalgia"

That's not the point, it's just getting incredibly tiring to just keep reading this over and over. I know it's not the intent of the staff to demotivate people, but this kind of posting does just that.

No matter how many times the words "alpha" and "testing" gets thrown around, it would be nice if time put in by players would at least be acknowledged. Asking for a return on renown when large changes get implemented without warning is not unreasonable I feel. Can things like this at least be discussable without being placed in the "whine" camp, please?

I am not throwing it around at all. I rarely really read the forum lately exactly because of stuff like this. Yes this is an alpha and you are considered testers first, but in reality the majority isn't actually testing. It's fine to just play the game and we are very grateful for people who actively report bugs and help us with constructive critisism.

But don't blame me for pointing this out, when we have people telling us Aza can't expect respect for the thousands of hours he spent coding because we don't respect the time you spent farming renown.

I have no issue with you personally and I honestly think you people are getting a lot more flak than you deserve. Online communities are inherently toxic once they reach a certain size and you guys are noticing that firsthand. The thing is, when you point this out, it has a demotivating effect. Not just on the people who are indeed disrespectful and acting entitled, but also on others. It's not logical per se, but it is there. The problem is that I've read that very statement a LOT of times lately. I know it's not directed at me personally, but after reading it often enough, it just starts to get annoying. And there's others who feel the same way. Especially when a lot of the people who are behaving like spoilt children will probably not change their behaviour, whereas other people might eventually.

Anyways, it's not a huge issue. I was probably a bit more annoyed at it than I should have been. All I wanted to do was point it out.