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Patch Notes 03/12/2020

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Detangler
Posts: 467

Re: Patch Notes 03/12/2020

Post#181 » Sat Dec 05, 2020 7:28 am

Dabbart wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 7:05 am
Detangler wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 5:26 am
I think mSquig should have its own separate health pool, so after it dies you have to then kill the squig herder inside. Its only logical.
This might be a low-key genius idea as a morale or tactic. Choppa's have self rezz...
Don't you dare give creedence to my post I made in jest. I couldn't imagine the round of complaints about an "auto kaboom" tactic with 25% health remaining on a class with so many escape tools built in.

Don't Imagine the river of tears generated by yet another destro-unique ability implemented because of its sheer awesomeness.

And don't imagine that the downside of this tactic would be taking the place of a more offensive-based tactic, thus lowering the potential damage output of the Squig Herder class and giving it more defensive capabilities.

Don't think about that!
Detangler - 40 DoK armor talisman farmer
Deetangler - 40/82 Chosen tankbot/murdermachine
Deeetangler - 40/6x Zealot healbot/talisman factory
Tanglers - baby Swordmaster
Other 40's w similar names.
Dabbling with RoR again

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Dabbart
Posts: 2058

Re: Patch Notes 03/12/2020

Post#182 » Sat Dec 05, 2020 7:33 am

Spoiler:
Detangler wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 7:28 am
Dabbart wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 7:05 am
Detangler wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 5:26 am
I think mSquig should have its own separate health pool, so after it dies you have to then kill the squig herder inside. Its only logical.
This might be a low-key genius idea as a morale or tactic. Choppa's have self rezz...
Don't you dare give creedence to my post I made in jest. I couldn't imagine the round of complaints about an "auto kaboom" tactic with 25% health remaining on a class with so many escape tools built in.

Don't Imagine the river of tears generated by yet another destro-unique ability implemented because of its sheer awesomeness.

And don't imagine that the downside of this tactic would be taking the place of a more offensive-based tactic, thus lowering the potential damage output of the Squig Herder class and giving it more defensive capabilities.

Don't think about that!
To The Balance Forums!

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Azarael wrote:
Mon Nov 28, 2016 6:30 pm
It's only a nerf if you're bad.

(see, I can shitpost too!)

Jastojan
Posts: 180

Re: Patch Notes 03/12/2020

Post#183 » Sat Dec 05, 2020 8:53 am

Teefz wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 7:16 am
ReturnOfReckoning wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 4:37 pm
- FInish ‘Em Off : This ability can now be obtained 9 steps into the Path of Big Shootin'. The range of this ability has been restored to 100 feet.
- Not So Fast : This ability can now be obtained 5 steps into the Path of Quick Shootin'. The range of this ability has been lowered to 65 feet, and it can be casted on the move. The initiative debuff has been removed from it.
- Red Tipped Arrer : This ability can now be obtained 13 steps into the Path of Quick Shootin'. In addition of the current effect , the ability will remove a damage absorbing effect from the target , and will deal damage every time it successfully remove it.
- Run Away! : This ability moved to Quick Shootin’ Core Abilities and is obtainable at level 21.
- Yer Bleedin’ : This ability duration has been reduced to 10 seconds , the tick interval are reduced to 2 seconds , and it will additionally debuff initiative. A 5 seconds cooldown has been added to the ability.
The current conditions and rotations feels a lot smoother after the latest patch, once you do get into range. Well done moving skills back to paths where they belong.

ReturnOfReckoning wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 4:37 pm
- The Gas Squig will now increase range by 15 feet instead of 10%. *Note : the tooltip correctly says 15 feet but buffline still says 15% and will be corrected with next patch.
Grunbag wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 5:03 pm
Jabba wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 5:01 pm
So your solution to the quick shootin problems that you created unnecessarily, is to give gas squig +15 ft range.

This is the pet that stops autos on the move, something that is clearly at odds with your 'mobile single target skirmisher gameplay', and does very little damage, and the damage that it does do, is aoe fluff.

That’s the idea : use gas squig for safe range , or use spiked for better pet abilties / bonus

What has the range nerf in the Quick Shootin' path got to do with the Big Shootin' pet?

- Is the goal to promote "stance dancing" on squig?

- If yes, is "stance dancing" really the master plan you want on a class with 30cd on pets?

It seems like a hail Mary attempt to try and fix the lack of range, by changing the range values of a pet not linked to the mastery path you are trying to promote. If you are committing to the current suicidal QS-playstyle, you have to use Spiked. Always. Everything else is a loss in damage output and no matter the value on Gas Squig will ever change that.

ReturnOfReckoning wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 4:37 pm
- Explodin’ Arrer : This ability can now be obtained 5 steps into the Path of Big Shootin'. This ability is no longer a ground target ability and has 2 seconds cast time.
EA has gone from being useful in a few situations, despite it's low damage, to being completely useless all together in this rework. There are multiple questions that come to mind:

- Why does Squig Herder need another AOE kb?

- Why is this ability now a 2s AOE if you are constantly stating that AOE is for bouncin' only?

The damage or lack thereof on the ability combined with the amount of downtime in DPS and mobility, I still find it extremely useless. Unless you wanna roleplay choppa and handout free immunites all over the place. Not worth the spec point in it's current form. The old pre-rework version would synergise better and provide another insta ailment for RA, since there is CD on YB now.


Currently with this rework, it feels like the direction you guys want is that QS-squig herders aren't ment to take part in various aspects such as keep/fortress or instigate fights anymore, but their sole purpose is to gank somewhere where their limited range isn't at a huge disadvantage or to charge right behind destruction's melee train. So far, overall, you've succesfully managed to raise the damage and skillcap of the spec, while ultimately sacrificing QS-squig herders viability in multiple environments. In a toss up between having shorter range and more dmg or having more range and less dmg, it would be interesting to see what the community would choose. Both specs can work imo, pre-rework is just significantly less trivial and adds more enjoyment and options to the overall gameplay of the character.
The Explodin’ Arrer is absolutely useless spell as you wrote - 20 sec. CD low dmg, 2 sec. cast. Looks like a copy of shamans "Geddoff". The spot of EA in mastery tree (at this form of EA) looks like a wasted spot to me.
Low range of QS in combination with bonus range at "wrong" pet is forcing players to "Pet dancing" like a equivalent of stance dancing but 30 sec CD, I agree. Does not help the class to be fun to play too.
If we should look at the whole rework the only changes I realy like is ranged KD and Finishem off lower in tree to be honest. :-/
Maybe we should look back in time and ask what was the SH then and what we want now? The main problem of rSH was that it had no place in serious WB gameplay (maybe1 piece for whole WB, not more). Almost noone wanted them in WB because of lack of dmg, lack of burst compared to other dmgers. After SW rework destro players asked for maybe one more viable ranged on destro side to counter order because I agree that aoe of BW, engies during sieges (fort especially) was huge + after SW rework (which many hardcore SWs did not like I understand) comes even new ranged aoe dps to support this ranged aoe "party".
I know that there were many hours behind these changes and I appreciate your work. I know you dont want to have rSH as a mirror of SW. I just do not feel that all these changes were... right? I do not know If this is the propieate word to describe it. Just my opinion, I am not so experienced SH as Jurki or Teefz are - just 74RR.

PS: I will give it more time to test of course.

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Grunbag
Project Team
Posts: 1877

Re: Patch Notes 03/12/2020

Post#184 » Sat Dec 05, 2020 12:20 pm

Teefz wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 7:16 am
ReturnOfReckoning wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 4:37 pm
- FInish ‘Em Off : This ability can now be obtained 9 steps into the Path of Big Shootin'. The range of this ability has been restored to 100 feet.
- Not So Fast : This ability can now be obtained 5 steps into the Path of Quick Shootin'. The range of this ability has been lowered to 65 feet, and it can be casted on the move. The initiative debuff has been removed from it.
- Red Tipped Arrer : This ability can now be obtained 13 steps into the Path of Quick Shootin'. In addition of the current effect , the ability will remove a damage absorbing effect from the target , and will deal damage every time it successfully remove it.
- Run Away! : This ability moved to Quick Shootin’ Core Abilities and is obtainable at level 21.
- Yer Bleedin’ : This ability duration has been reduced to 10 seconds , the tick interval are reduced to 2 seconds , and it will additionally debuff initiative. A 5 seconds cooldown has been added to the ability.
The current conditions and rotations feels a lot smoother after the latest patch, once you do get into range. Well done moving skills back to paths where they belong.

ReturnOfReckoning wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 4:37 pm
- The Gas Squig will now increase range by 15 feet instead of 10%. *Note : the tooltip correctly says 15 feet but buffline still says 15% and will be corrected with next patch.
Grunbag wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 5:03 pm
Jabba wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 5:01 pm
So your solution to the quick shootin problems that you created unnecessarily, is to give gas squig +15 ft range.

This is the pet that stops autos on the move, something that is clearly at odds with your 'mobile single target skirmisher gameplay', and does very little damage, and the damage that it does do, is aoe fluff.

That’s the idea : use gas squig for safe range , or use spiked for better pet abilties / bonus

What has the range nerf in the Quick Shootin' path got to do with the Big Shootin' pet?

- Is the goal to promote "stance dancing" on squig?

- If yes, is "stance dancing" really the master plan you want on a class with 30cd on pets?

It seems like a hail Mary attempt to try and fix the lack of range, by changing the range values of a pet not linked to the mastery path you are trying to promote. If you are committing to the current suicidal QS-playstyle, you have to use Spiked. Always. Everything else is a loss in damage output and no matter the value on Gas Squig will ever change that.

ReturnOfReckoning wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 4:37 pm
- Explodin’ Arrer : This ability can now be obtained 5 steps into the Path of Big Shootin'. This ability is no longer a ground target ability and has 2 seconds cast time.
EA has gone from being useful in a few situations, despite it's low damage, to being completely useless all together in this rework. There are multiple questions that come to mind:

- Why does Squig Herder need another AOE kb?

- Why is this ability now a 2s cast AOE if you are constantly stating that AOE is for bouncin' only?

The damage or lack thereof on the ability combined with the amount of downtime in DPS and mobility, I still find it extremely useless. Unless you wanna roleplay choppa and handout free immunites all over the place. Not worth the spec point in it's current form. The old pre-rework version would synergise better and provide another insta ailment for RA, since there is CD on YB now.


Currently with this rework, it feels like the direction you guys want is that QS-squig herders aren't ment to take part in various aspects such as keep/fortress or instigate fights anymore, but their sole purpose is to gank somewhere where their limited range isn't at a huge disadvantage or to charge right behind destruction's melee train. So far, overall, you've succesfully managed to raise the damage and skillcap of the spec, while ultimately sacrificing QS-squig herders viability in multiple environments. In a toss up between having shorter range and more dmg or having more range and less dmg, it would be interesting to see what the community would choose. Both specs can work imo, pre-rework is just significantly less trivial and adds more enjoyment and options to the overall gameplay of the character.
We don’t want pet dance . Things are simple : if you want range you use gas squig, if you want burst damage you use spiked squig . No need to switch , it depend your build and play style. But it is possible to switch once time to time from one squig to another by using fatty squig or tastes like chicken for sure.

EA is something we wanted BS tree use (not skirmished that’s why it has 2 sec Cast. EA is offensive KD for siege purpose , Kaboom is a defensive aoe KB mostly used to have a safety range again.
Grunbag - 40 - 33 Squig Herder
Skorri - 40 - 65 Engineer

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maxonian
Posts: 7

Re: Patch Notes 03/12/2020

Post#185 » Sat Dec 05, 2020 12:40 pm

Teefz wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 7:16 am
EA has gone from being useful in a few situations, despite it's low damage, to being completely useless all together in this rework.

As an SH player I'll politely disagree here.

EA have always been pretty ****. AOE dmg was always laughable. What were you using it for other than protecting Yer Bleedin and Rotten Arrer from cleanses? EA's new purpose is to punt people off the walls, for them to get mauled by choppas and WEs, which you could hardly do after the first iteration of class rework, with EA being changed to PBAoE, instead of a targetted ability it currently is. The new EA is a less SH-oriented and more wb-oriented ability.

Put another way, EA had had utility before, EA has utility now (albeit of a different kind). To say that's it's completely useless is to disregard new utility and possible situational uses of an ability. I disagree with you and anyone who says EA is not worth the point (we've been given a freebie with Run away going core too).

Teefz wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 7:16 am
Currently with this rework, it feels like the direction you guys want is that QS-squig herders aren't ment to take part in various aspects such as keep/fortress

I dont feel that way at all. After latest patch I feel that SH is absolutely back making impact in wb and keep/fort sieges plays.
With finisher FEO being returned to it's rightful place in BS with 100ft range, the burst and killing potential is once again restored. Claiming that "but we're discussing QS being not viable here! What's BS have to do with this?" doesnt work here, because no rSH it truly "pure QS". This
RR40 build utilises most QS abilities and still leaves you with 9 mastery points to spec into BS, with next logical step being grabbing FEO at RR50 (heck, even taking the entirety of QS has you with 4 points left at RR40). Thus all rSHs are always both QS and BS, unless you simply refrain from spending mastery points outside of QS.

With that being said, IF you insist on playing 'pure QS', I can see a problem of new Yer Bleedin bottlenecking your rotations and DPS. As many rSHs have experienced after the patch, myself included, you find yourself in a weird limbo if your Yer Bleedin gets dodged or blocked - making you unable to apply Rotten Arrer, thus BOTH of your DoTs are going out of the window (that's 2 out of 2, rSHs dont have many). What could you do if that happens?

What Blocka, Plink, Lots o Arrers - all stationary casts from BS. Defy the 'mobile' nature of QS
Run n Shoot - basic cast on the move QS damaging ability. Okay but not extraordinary damage

Which brings me to a point, that for a tree that's supposed to be high risk (short range)/high reward (burst and dps), the risk is always there, but the rewards are very dependent on landing Yer Bleedin first try or you're screwed offensively. Defensively you still got the disarm, the silence, the snare, the run away, the self punt, the RKD to wait out Yer Bleedin cooldown and try again or disengage.

BUT - and that should be a massive but (pun intended) - all of this QS-purist pain of not landing Yer Bleedin and then suffering is mostly only applicable in solo roaming context. During wb plays your target is likely to already be Ailing from your teammates' abilities, thereby letting you go ham with Rotten Arrers and running around, fully utilising the freedom of QS. I really fail to see how your claim of "QS-squig herders aren't ment to take part in various aspects such as keep/fortress" is justifiable. Personally I dont feel that way at all. Especially during the more mobile stages of keep and fort sieges (guarding posterns for keeps and BO phase in forts)

I currently run this build. With pets becoming much more valuable because of 1) Sharpened Arrers armor pen which is very potent (as you probably tested) and 2) New range-inceasing Gas squig to mitigate QS range reduction, I chose to run I Got Lots, which I believe is an underappreciated tactic many SHs are sleeping on yet. It works great for the game context I engage the most in - RVR. With it I am never squig-less for long, even if last squig melted in order AOE barrage seconds ago. It also enables me to use Tastes like Chicken at will, without fear of locking myself out of my stance/class mechanic for 30 seconds.

Overall, I feel that the first iteration of rSH rework completely butchered the essence of the class, but the second one revived it, even if it is in a different fashion (but 'rework' implies things being different in the end, right?). I am once again having fun and not feeling shame for taking a spot in wb that a sorc or a magus could have taken. Cheers to devs for their ability to take off rough angles that the first patch brought.

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Ugle
Posts: 573

Re: Patch Notes 03/12/2020

Post#186 » Sat Dec 05, 2020 5:35 pm

Btw gunbad end wing boss kills dosent contribute to quest(kill 3 times).

Also as on the recieving end of a lot of shs lately, it seems to me there is something wonky with dot dmg calculations. Only noticed on sh dots after patch. Typically 300 dmg (100 mitigated) one tick, then next tick suddenly 400 dmg (5 mitigated). And no it is not armor debuff differences. Will check if I got a screenshot.
Ugle - SW | Amoebas - AM | Amoeba - SM | Korsbror - WP
Gief - SH | Sidathex - WE | Pnzr - BO | Uglegutt - SQH

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NSKaneda
Posts: 601

Re: Patch Notes 03/12/2020

Post#187 » Sat Dec 05, 2020 6:14 pm

Ugle wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 5:35 pm
Also as on the recieving end of a lot of shs lately, it seems to me there is something wonky with dot dmg calculations. Only noticed on sh dots after patch. Typically 300 dmg (100 mitigated) one tick, then next tick suddenly 400 dmg (5 mitigated). And no it is not armor debuff differences. Will check if I got a screenshot.
Yer bleedin' has got ini debuff now ;)
RoR: Burszui SH, Ropopuch SHM, Mordoszczel BO | Ginnar IB, Zuriael AM ++ REV guild ++
Live: Karak Izor -> Karak Norn - Yarpaen IB, Ginnarr SL, Volundr ENG +Ithilmar's Chosen+
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Darks63
Posts: 556

Re: Patch Notes 03/12/2020

Post#188 » Sat Dec 05, 2020 7:17 pm

NSKaneda wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 6:14 pm
Ugle wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 5:35 pm
Also as on the recieving end of a lot of shs lately, it seems to me there is something wonky with dot dmg calculations. Only noticed on sh dots after patch. Typically 300 dmg (100 mitigated) one tick, then next tick suddenly 400 dmg (5 mitigated). And no it is not armor debuff differences. Will check if I got a screenshot.
Yer bleedin' has got ini debuff now ;)
That would explain it if the next tick critted but not a sudden increase like that.
Tourist SW 40/50+<Zaxxed> Discotec 40/40+<IRONIC>

Former Pragg/Badlands Destro Iron Rock/Badlands Order player.

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Dabbart
Posts: 2058

Re: Patch Notes 03/12/2020

Post#189 » Sat Dec 05, 2020 7:54 pm

Did they have a buddy Sham with 'em? DPS sham can double debuff toughness by 225ish(dunno what brain bursta caps at) outside of armor debuff, that's my first thought.
Azarael wrote:
Mon Nov 28, 2016 6:30 pm
It's only a nerf if you're bad.

(see, I can shitpost too!)

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NSKaneda
Posts: 601

Re: Patch Notes 03/12/2020

Post#190 » Sat Dec 05, 2020 7:55 pm

Darks63 wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 7:17 pm
NSKaneda wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 6:14 pm
Spoiler:
Ugle wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 5:35 pm
Also as on the recieving end of a lot of shs lately, it seems to me there is something wonky with dot dmg calculations. Only noticed on sh dots after patch. Typically 300 dmg (100 mitigated) one tick, then next tick suddenly 400 dmg (5 mitigated). And no it is not armor debuff differences. Will check if I got a screenshot.
Yer bleedin' has got ini debuff now ;)
That would explain it if the next tick critted but not a sudden increase like that.
Armour penetration tactic? I'll pay attention to combat log and check if I have the same increase.
RoR: Burszui SH, Ropopuch SHM, Mordoszczel BO | Ginnar IB, Zuriael AM ++ REV guild ++
Live: Karak Izor -> Karak Norn - Yarpaen IB, Ginnarr SL, Volundr ENG +Ithilmar's Chosen+
* * * playing 19 classes - running out of char slots * * *

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