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Patch Notes 18/05/2022

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Sulorie
Posts: 6416

Re: Patch Notes 18/05/2022

Post#171 » Sat May 21, 2022 6:02 pm

geezereur wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 5:42 pm
Plz revert this gcd changes the game play so bad atm.
What plays bad? That run out of AP?
Dying is no option.

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ravezaar
Posts: 295

Re: Patch Notes 18/05/2022

Post#172 » Sat May 21, 2022 7:37 pm

The Devs make the changes for there game so no point in arguing over it, do I agree with alot of things that happened recently ? NO I dont. I just not sure our opinions matter, not sure they should, its Devs free time and there project, we just play and we can ofc choose not to do so. Iv seen alot more of that over the past year and tho I didnt like NB it cost alot of players, this will cost alot of players and lets face it this game dont have a huge amount of players to loose.

I can adapt to GCD, maybe even AP tho that is tough right now, I can also choose to not play. same goes for all.
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geraldtarrant
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Re: Patch Notes 18/05/2022

Post#173 » Sat May 21, 2022 8:38 pm

Sulorie wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 6:02 pm
geezereur wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 5:42 pm
Plz revert this gcd changes the game play so bad atm.
What plays bad? That run out of AP?
Playing feels bad becouse its clunky and slow.
Gaming on this server felt better than this when in was T1 phase, with only GoE and 50 players online.
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Omegus
Posts: 929

Re: Patch Notes 18/05/2022

Post#174 » Sun May 22, 2022 7:52 am

From what I've pieced together from the forums, discord (RoR official and others), and a bit of digging in the Apoc code...

Pre-patch:
Spoiler:
1) RoR's GCD was set to 1.1s based on incorrect assumptions from years ago on when the client would send ability activation requests to the server. In the Apoc code it mentions the client sending requests up to 400ms early (0.4 seconds) early, Dalen has said it can sometimes be even earlier than this.

2) Assuming the client would send ability requests 0.4s early, your actual GCD would not be 1.1s: it would be 1.1s plus all the delays for frame stuttering, varying network latency, server tick rate. And this is assuming you pressed the ability button exactly at 1.1s (or got lucky with one of the times the client would send it early).

3) As there was no queue for abilities, if you managed to somehow get the client to send the request before 1.1s had passed then there was a chance it would arrive at the server too early. The server would just ignore the ability activation request.

4) Due to no queue and due to when the client would likely send ability requests, although the server GCD was set to 1.1s the rate at which you would actually use abilities would be anything between 1.1s to 1.5s depending on when you pressed the key (mashing is what - 3-4 times per second? - which can easily miss the perfect window), if the client had a little freeze up (often) which dropped some frames and didn't process the input until afterwards, server ping (EU good, NA eh, AUS lol), and so on.

5) Any actual notion that past balancing was based around everyone playing with a 1.1s GCD is completely wrong, as everyone was playing on a fairly random or inconsistent time between abilities that was not even consistent for the same player chaining abilities together. Additionally, the live balance values of 1.5s for the GCD (which factors into multipliers for damage bonuses from strength/ballistic skill/intelligence) were still in place, weapon DPS contribution was still based on a 1.5s GCD, etc.

6) In short, even if mashing keys the gap between each ability could vary between 0 seconds to 0.4 seconds very easily.

7) This gap is also what caused the AP regen to be incorrect and inconsistent. The server keeps track of the time when you're not casting, channelling or on the GCD and once that total time reaches 1 second, you get a tick of AP regen. If people were actually able to consistently use abilities every 1.1s then they wouldn't ever have regenerated AP until they stopped using any abilities. Instead, abilities were being triggered at any point between 1.1s and 1.5s, and that extra time between 1.1s and when the ability fired off was counting towards the AP regen timer (also big evidence that you weren't actually using abilities every 1.1s).
And now post patch (with hot-fixes):
Spoiler:
1) RoR's internal GCD has now been set to 1.5 seconds, which matches the "official" GCD time. Debates will range forever regarding if there was any wiggle room for this back on live.

2) There is now an ability queue system in place, so unlike before if somehow an ability request arrived at the server before 1.1s it was discarded, if the ability request now arrives before 1.5s (the new GCD) it is saved and executed the moment the GCD ends. This now means that GCD is consistent for everyone at all times as even with the worst luck you should still be able to get the message to the server within 1.5s.

3) Now that this varying/random gap between ability activation has been removed, there is no longer a secret build-up of time towards the AP regen timer that was caused by abilities activating well after the 1.1s theoretical best speed. The extra ticks of AP you got in combat out of nowhere while chaining/spamming abilities have now gone.

4) The more you notice the difference in AP, the closer to activating your abilities at 1.5s instead of 1.1s you were pre-patch. You're noticing the AP regen difference more because you're now missing all the extra regen time that was accumulating between 1.1s and when your ability was actually used. If you were perfectly hitting the 1.1s GCD before then you would have more AP now than you did before, as you now activate abilities slower.

5) 1.5s is still slower than most people were playing as before, but the change is not actually an increase of 36% from the 1.1s that people thought they were playing at, but more likely a noticeable change of about 15% or so.
In terms of what balances/fixes/suggestions to propose:
Spoiler:
1. Asking for the entire patch to be rolled back is asking for the unachievable 1.1s GCD to be reinstated, which in reality was anything between 1.1s to 1.5s. It's also asking for the impossible-because-we're-all-pro-gamers-hitting-1.1s-GCD-but-somehow-still-got-ticks-of-AP-regen to be reinstated. Personally, I would rather have reliable game mechanics than broken ones. It would also remove the ability queue. Once you know how it was originally working behind the scenes - which was likely different to how you thought it worked - you probably don't want to just roll back everything and leave it.

2. Asking for the GCD to be lowered is possible, although trying to get it to 1.1s even with the ability queue is laughably optimistic especially if the client seems to change its mind on how early it will send requests to the server to activate abilities. And as mentioned many times before, you weren't actually using abilities at 1.1s before anyway. Any change to the GCD would likely come with a huge change to how weapon DPS and the damage bonuses (also in terms of "DPS") are factored in to keep things consistent.

3) Regarding the AP changes, before you were getting time added towards the AP regen counter without realising it. Now that the ability queue removes all gaps between abilities, those bonus ticks are gone. Now you know where all that extra AP was coming from and why it's not happening anymore, any proposals will need to take into account the existence of the new ability queue system.

For example: proposing that AP regen from gear always applied every second does not break the ability queue system. Proposing that the AP regen timer is only frozen for part of the GCD instead of all of it (assuming you're not also casting or channelling) does not break the ability queue system, and so on.

The GCD change is not the sole reason for the change to AP regen: it's the new ability queue removing the unnoticeable gaps between abilities that is causing a big part of the noticeable change.
All of which really needed to be communicated up front. IMO it's a lot easier to swallow these kind of changes once you know just how broken things were before.


edits: typos/etc.
Last edited by Omegus on Sun May 22, 2022 9:21 am, edited 5 times in total.

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kirraha
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Re: Patch Notes 18/05/2022

Post#175 » Sun May 22, 2022 8:51 am

Ill just aslso throw in my opinion about this patch. The game became clunky and even more unpolished by this change. I mean why bother with such things after server has been on for years now.

There prob is lists of issues that annoys ppl far more. I mean you can se bugs being open bug reports for literally 2 years. The knight aura for example, not be able use auras due to bug. You're in a city or any other match, you need respecc and can't even use auras so must relog the game to even be able use them. It's just examples, but I just find it hard see the reason in things. It's hard see the people pushing this patch, defend their opinion in a senseful matter. It don't add up for me at least, it just pisses people off. And sure you can just ignore the fact you are loosing core people, can always fill up with new people, but this projet don't rly have that huge fanbase, right? Can we afford keep pissing our older players off all the time. It's not meant as blackmailing, but I would have at least tried meet ppl halfway, not throw the raw fish in their face and say ''deal with it'' :)

Sulorie
Posts: 6416

Re: Patch Notes 18/05/2022

Post#176 » Sun May 22, 2022 9:25 am

Omegus wrote:
Sun May 22, 2022 7:52 am
From what I've pieced together, pre-patch was:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
1) RoR's GCD was set to 1.1s based on incorrect assumptions from years ago on when the client would send ability activation requests to the server. In the Apoc code it mentions the client sending requests up to 400ms early (0.4 seconds) early, Dalen has said it can sometimes be even earlier than this.

2) Assuming the client would send ability requests 0.4s early, your actual GCD would not be 1.1s: it would be 1.1s plus all the delays for frame stuttering, varying network latency, server tick rate. And this is assuming you pressed the ability button exactly at 1.1s (or got lucky with one of the times the client would send it early).

3) As there was no queue for abilities, if you managed to somehow get the client to send the request before 1.1s had passed then there was a chance it would arrive at the server too early. The server would just ignore the ability activation request.

4) Due to no queue and due to when the client would likely send ability requests, although the server GCD was set to 1.1s the rate at which you would actually use abilities would be anything between 1.1s to 1.5s depending on when you pressed the key (even mashing is what, 3-4 times per second which can easily miss the perfect window), if the client had a little freeze up (often) which dropped some frames and didn't process the input until afterwards, server ping (EU good, NA eh, AUS lol), and so on.

5) Any actual notion that past balancing was based around everyone playing with a 1.1s GCD is completely wrong, as everyone was playing on a fairly random or inconsistent time between abilities that was not even consistent for the same player chaining abilities together. Additionally, the live balance values of 1.5s for the GCD (which factors into multipliers for damage bonuses from strength/ballistic skill/intelligence) were still in place, weapon DPS contribution was still based on a 1.5s GCD, etc.

6) In short, even if mashing keys the gap between each ability could vary between 0 seconds to 0.4 seconds very easily.

7) This gap is also what caused the AP regen to be incorrect and inconsistent. The server keeps track of the time when you're not casting, channelling or on the GCD and once that total time reaches 1 second, you get a tick of AP regen. If people were actually able to consistently use abilities every 1.1s then they wouldn't ever have regenerated AP until they stopped using any abilities. Instead, abilities were being triggered at any point between 1.1s and 1.5s, and that extra time between 1.1s and when the ability fired off was counting towards the AP regen timer (also big evidence that you weren't actually using abilities every 1.1s).
And now post patch (with hot-fixes):
Spoiler:
1) RoR's internal GCD has now been set to 1.5 seconds, which matches the "official" GCD time. Debates will range forever regarding if there was any wiggle room for this back on live.

2) There is now an ability queue system in place, so unlike before if somehow an ability request arrived at the server before 1.1s it was discarded, if the ability request now arrives before 1.5s (the new GCD) it is saved and executed the moment the GCD ends. This now means that GCD is consistent for everyone at all times as even with the worst luck you should still be able to get the message to the server within 1.5s.

3) Now that this varying/random gap between ability activation has been removed, there is no longer a secret build-up of time towards the AP regen timer that was caused by abilities activating well after the 1.1s theoretical best speed. The extra ticks of AP you got in combat out of nowhere while chaining/spamming abilities have now gone.

4) The more you notice the difference in AP, the closer to activating your abilities at 1.5s instead of 1.1s you were pre-patch. You're noticing the AP regen difference more because you're now missing all the extra regen time that was accumulating between 1.1s and when your ability was actually used. If you were perfectly hitting the 1.1s GCD before then you would have more AP now than you did before, as you now activate abilities slower.

5) 1.5s is still slower than most people were playing as before, but the change is not actually an increase of 36% from the 1.1s that people thought they were playing at, but more likely a noticeable change of about 15% or so.
In terms of what balances/fixes/suggestions to propose:
Spoiler:
1. Asking for the entire patch to be rolled back is asking for the unachievable 1.1s GCD to be reinstated, which in reality was anything between 1.1s to 1.5s. It's also asking for the impossible-because-we're-all-pro-gamers-hitting-1.1s-GCD-but-somehow-still-got-ticks-of-AP-regen to be reinstated. Personally, I would rather have reliable game mechanics than broken ones. It would also remove the ability queue. Once you know how it was originally working behind the scenes - which was likely different to how you thought it worked - you probably don't want to just roll back everything and leave it.

2. Asking for the GCD to be lowered is possible, although trying to get it to 1.1s even with the ability queue is laughably optimistic especially if the client seems to change its mind on how early it will send requests to the server to activate abilities. And as mentioned many times before, you weren't actually using abilities at 1.1s before anyway. Any change to the GCD would likely come with a huge change to how weapon DPS and the damage bonuses (also in terms of "DPS") are factored in to keep things consistent.

3) Regarding the AP changes, before you were getting time added towards the AP regen counter without realising it. Now that the ability queue removes all gaps between abilities, those bonus ticks are gone. Now you know where all that extra AP was coming from and why it's not happening anymore, any proposals will need to take into account the existence of the new ability queue system.

For example: proposing that AP regen from gear always applied every second does not break the ability queue system. Proposing that the AP regen timer is only frozen for part of the GCD instead of all of it (assuming you're not also casting or channelling) does not break the ability queue system, and so on.

The GCD change is not the sole reason for the change to AP regen: it's the new ability queue removing the unnoticeable gaps between abilities that is causing a big part of the noticeable change.
All of which really needed to be communicated up front. IMO it's a lot easier to swallow these kind of changes once you know just how broken things were before.


edits: typos/etc.
Thank you for the detailed explanation.

I think ability queue has to stay to make fluent rotations, this means there is no ap regen until you stop using abilities.
IMO there are many AP gains from skills or group buffs and tactics, so letting gear +AP regen on a separate timer isn't necessary. It might only lead to a gear shift towards maxing out the gains and almost completely skip the normal regen.
I would like to see a reduction of the time it needs for regen to kick in. In a fight, where you are forced to do something, waiting 1sec feels a lot longer :)
We can only test what is right but 0,5 sec delay might be a start.
Dying is no option.

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Emissary
Posts: 132

Re: Patch Notes 18/05/2022

Post#177 » Sun May 22, 2022 5:03 pm

Im with others that are stating why tie AP and GCD together? Why not make AP independent? Have AP tick for whatever a second no matter the GCD and of course the modifiers on abilities/equipment would raise that AP regen up or down. Just take AP completely out of the equation of GCD.

The argument from one dev and his streamer that it needs to be like live then makes all the points on any changes to this server obsolete. We might as well add Nerfedbuttons back in and take away the changes to WP and DOKS as it goes against the official live servers way of doing things.

I get the fact devs/gms can do what they want and I will no matter what accept it, because it is their sandbox and I want to play in it and am happy they allow me to.

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Sulorie
Posts: 6416

Re: Patch Notes 18/05/2022

Post#178 » Sun May 22, 2022 6:08 pm

Emissary wrote:
Sun May 22, 2022 5:03 pm


The argument from one dev and his streamer that it needs to be like live then makes all the points on any changes to this server obsolete.
This isn't the argument.
Abilities with a cast time have dmg scaling appropriate to their cast time. Instant casts have dmg/heal values based on a cast time of 1,5sec(correct me if I am wrong). When you now hit your buttons at the right moment to use abilities more often, e.g. at 1,15sec instead of 1,5sec, you will have higher dps than you should have compared to abilities with a cast time. This makes instant casts and all melee hits better than they should be.
Dying is no option.

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Gravord
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Re: Patch Notes 18/05/2022

Post#179 » Sun May 22, 2022 6:40 pm

Emissary wrote:
Sun May 22, 2022 5:03 pm
The argument from one dev and his streamer that it needs to be like live then makes all the points on any changes to this server obsolete.
Mind quoting when and where "his streamer" made such argument? Id love to see it.

Nebuchadnezzar
Posts: 45

Re: Patch Notes 18/05/2022

Post#180 » Sun May 22, 2022 7:03 pm

Sulorie wrote:
Sun May 22, 2022 6:08 pm
Emissary wrote:
Sun May 22, 2022 5:03 pm
The argument from one dev and his streamer that it needs to be like live then makes all the points on any changes to this server obsolete.
This isn't the argument.
Abilities with a cast time have dmg scaling appropriate to their cast time. Instant casts have dmg/heal values based on a cast time of 1,5sec(correct me if I am wrong). When you now hit your buttons at the right moment to use abilities more often, e.g. at 1,15sec instead of 1,5sec, you will have higher dps than you should have compared to abilities with a cast time. This makes instant casts and all melee hits better than they should be.
Except for the part where the GCD has been this way for years and nobody felt like instant cast skills were overperforming relative to casted skills. The damage scaling argument doesn't make any sense since because nobody felt the overall skill damage values were an issue, the error in GCD scaling was already implicitly absorbed in the arbitrary skill damage coefficient it gets multiplied by when coming up with skill damages (ie something along the lines of: scaling = str/int/ball stat multiplier * GCD * arbitrary coefficient)

When evaluating incremental changes in anything really it's important to establish what your baseline state is. Anchoring back to live as the "correct" state doesn't make much sense because it ignores all the work that's been done on the server over the years. Because nobody was complaining about insta-cast skills overperforming, the recent state should be taken as the baseline and thus the change is a ~20% nerf (or whatever the number is based on your assumed "effective" GCD) to all insta-cast skills that also compromises game feel and fluidity for any class relying mostly on them. Those relying on dots/casted abilities are unlikely to notice or be as affected.

This is overall pretty similar to situations where combo/animation cancelling was removed in other games which has always been met with huge backlash and has been generally detrimental to the game.

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