Da Toughest Bellow

[footpatrol2]

There is a balance discussion going on right now on da toughest bellow. I can't write as freely there as I can here.

I will provide the reason I think on why I think the toughest bellow exists. So this is a opinion piece.
If you don't want to read this wall of text in short I think the toughest bellow exists to assist in morale bomb protection in a tank wall group comp that's designed for a warband keep defense situation.

There are 3 phases to this game concerning RvR. Keep offense, Keep defense, and Roaming. There is a career trainer in each keep. Depending on what phase of RvR your in you can switch your spec to the situation. A highly organized guild like phalanx could en masse switch spec's to the phase of RvR your in. If your doing keep defense phase you could switch to da toughest spec to participate in a tank wall.

First to start off I think the mythic dev's thought tank wall's would be a thing. It is not a lasting strategy. I know tank walls have fallen out of favor with the community but I think da toughest tree was designed with this in mind. What Tank wall's do though is buy you time. Time for what? Time to reach a morale bomb condition and swing the fight in your favor. The morale gain rates were a lot faster on the mythic server's so if you can buy just say 10 to 20 extra seconds thats a big deal. It is not a big deal on this server because of the dirty dirty slow morale gain rates. You could reach your m4 in 100 sec's baseline on the mythic server's or 60 sec's if you cared about morale gain rates and took all the tools available to increase your morale gain rates.

How tough is offensive cross guarded tanks? Pretty tough right? How tough is cross-guarded defensive tanks? Outrageously tough. When Would you use this? In a keep defense. What will tank wall's encounter quite a bit? Morale bombs. How do you counter morale bombs? There are many way's but one of which is wounds. How high can you push your wounds on your BO? Really really high especially if you have a gear set with wounds on it. Just passively experimenting I've pushed my wounds to 11k health.The enemy has to commit to a really high instant damage morale bombs to get past your tank wall.

What does da toughest bellow do? It increases your wounds by 480 hitpoints once it trigger's. BO's have a wound's baseline tactic that further increases your wounds by 1600 hit points. What is in da toughest tree and has always been there? Can't hit me. Can't hit me is a 50% increase to your block value. If you take saving da runts tactic and your using can't hit me and your taking constant damage you can permanently upkeep can't hit me. Can't hit me provides a attack back to the attacker. What can this do? It can trigger a bellow. Tank wall's are constantly taking Single target damage and splash damage. Which mean's your triggering your bellow's like crazy. You know that whole pve thing BO's do that can farm a million mob's? There is a in game RvR purpose for it.

You can reach extremely high block value's on your BO. You got can't hit me 50% block, 10% base block, good wif shield 10% block, Less stabbin me 10% block, and renown block 18%. Without breathing hard you can get 80% block and likely 100% block if you had the gear and renown spec'd into it.

Ok The group comp. This is a premade quality tank wall group comp.
4 Toughest BO's and 2 shaman's Or
3 Toughest BO's and 1 Boss and 2 shaman's.
Minimal amount of spec points to allow for flexability.

Toughest BO
http://waronlinebuilder.org/#career=bo; ... :4470:4497:
Boss BO
http://waronlinebuilder.org/#career=bo; ... 469:4470:0:

What does this group comp have?
Potentially all tanks have 11k wounds. 10k for boss spec if taken
Toughest tanks self healing by 480 every 10 sec's.
Daisy chain your guards or Cross guard.
You have the option too permanently upkeep quite yer squablin m1 for 10% addition parry/dodge
You have the option too permanently upkeep walk it off m2 for morale toughness 160 which stacks with ability toughness.
You have the option to maintain ID for 40 sec's out of a minute.
4 of your tank wall player's have 80 to 100% block value. This makes you relatively immune to Ap cc abilities.
Shaman's can push your toughness up by 240 using do sumfin useful so your getting 400 toughness buff higher then normal.
If you spec'd into it you have the option to cycle Can't Touch Us m4 for a 3000 absorb 200 action point feed every 15 sec's. The AP feed may eliminate the need to slot in savin da runts tactic slotted to permanently upkeep Can't touch us m4. Or you keep savin da runts tactic and if your getting ap drained you pop Can't touch Us.
All 4 BO player's have the option to slot loudmouth tactic and machine gun down targets if your assisting.
There is a lot of interesting tactic set ups you can do with a group comp like this.

If your using a Boss spec BO in your BO tank wall group comp
You have a adaptive defensive bellow with da greenest bellow. Your providing 990 armor buff to your tank wall and 378 resists when your getting hit by splash damage.
If the enemy tries to melee morale bomb you pre-emptively pop Yer Nothin m4 for AE melee morale drain.

With 80% to 100% block value on defensive cross guarded tanks with a max value da greenest bellow. Your shutting off AP damage. This group comp can easily stand in the middle of a keep hallway and tank a warband. The 11/12k wounds is morale bomb protection and da toughest bellow helps provide this. If the enemy tries to limp in on a damage over time morale bomb it won't work. Or I should correctly say It would be hard to pull off with a damage over time morale bomb. You need to drop a instant damage morale bomb higher then 11k damage to get past this group comp.

This is obviously a group comp made with the intention of a warband support. The other 3 groups bring the pain. You only need 4 BO's and 2 Shaman's to run this comp in a warband. Those player's could be cookie cutter whatever but when the keep defense happen's they are willing to switch spec's and carry a wounds gear set on them. This could be just a trick in a organizer's pocket.

[Penril]

There is a balance discussion going on right now on da toughest bellow. I can't write as freely there as I can here.

You can if you follow the rules. For example, this post would be a good counter to the OP's proposal since you try to prove that DT is fine as it is and needs no buffs. Then someone else would need to debunk you.

However if you derail to "racial groups" (like you usually do) then yeah, I would not let you write freely about it there.

[footpatrol2]

This post mention's a racial group group comp which is why I kept it out of the balance forums. As I mentioned in the balance forums I think DT should be increased to its original state of 96 wounds buff at max value as opposed too 48 wounds buff.

[Penril]

Which is why this thread is ok

[Collateral]

Uf, I really find it hard to believe I would ever use toughest in a tank wall. I never tried CHM in a keep defense for some reason, but I definitely can and will. Our problem in the guild is that we kinda lack BOs. I would love to make a greenskin only party inside a wb, there's many interesting things you can do. But I still don't see it. The wound buff is just so small, considering BWs can crit me for almost 1k for some reason, even with decent ini and capped resists. And when you fight the zerg which has a crap ton of dmg coming your way (and I have many times), 420 more hp seriously seems like a joke, especially when morales start flying around. But if it buffed for 960 like you say it did, I might actually consider it. I rather use stat steal which will boost my whole party at least for some amount, and I trust my healers to keep me alive in big battles (which they do quite nicely)

[ragafury]

Spoiler:

rather spoiler myself here to not get censored + banned out of balance and leave it here as an final awnser to Balance Thread
but I think it all belongs a bit together / is one. and has to be inspected as a whole.

So, it's been stated a few times now that da toughest is the weakest bellow. I feel I addressed this in my first post, but I am curious how that is believed so. Outside of very specific(and weak) group comp, the armor/resist bellow is literally worthless. It doesn't stack with pots, so you need to invest up to Waaagh to even get over the 660 armor pots(if I remember correctly), and the resist doesn't stack with sham/chosen and it requires the BO to be hit before it provides any resistance...

Obviously stat steal is king. Even at its lowest level. But I have always believed that every class was built with abilities and tactics that are solely designed for use in PvE. This bellow is one of them imo.

@Dabbart
yes but let's say you have a odd grp like blorc BG choppa mara zealot dok I prefer to run the resistance bellow, I rather have ini / wp on my grp, so overall it's a welcome fix for realm balance even if the bellow needs to trigger first etc. only for the resistances ofc. every black orc skill which provides armor, or more like every ability which provides not significantly more armor than pot needs a rework, at least if you balance the game around proper usage and distribution of buffs. should armor pots get an alternative than the story is another. but as long this isn't the case.



1. middle tree underperforming overall, no major gain in survivability by it self (more on it down below), da Toughest is linked to this tree, so it's an issue of many which adds up
2. waaagh / brawler on same level, one ST / one AOE/support ( both performing on pair / same level for the purpose they designed)

think middle tree needs in general a rework or it will stay the way it is, a source for non meta unicorn builds and for T4 entrees who struggle with survivability.
only abilities with decent value are DYG YMM AP tactic... parry block tactic is ok (but still 10% block for free as class tactic), problem is CHM has to much counter play, whole tree is pointless, spend AP to no deal dmg and get ignored, spent on a bellow which is trash tier, tuffer n nails same armor generator problem as usual, savin me hide grants a flat percentage reductio, so for defensive purposes it's capped, M4 is waste, zealot has the same if you want that, rather take standard M4. Toughest is just one point of many why the whole build is unatractive. on top of that with high level gear, aka conq proc and tactic you are wounds soft capped, so extended EHP is also not an issue from a durabilty PoV.

I skilled toughest specc, in the beginning and it was alright (ruin, no sc weps etc), skilled it again 2 weeks ago (or 5 months later again, or 71 RR later depends on PoV) for some shenaningans, yikes, no reason to specc it. most viable enviroment would be WB... nobody needs there 50% block channeled which doesn't provide HTL buff, dmg is same as a Boss (ok faster ticks, but you depend on the fact that ppl will keep hitting you) specc spamming Waaaagh! almost, besides that Waaagh helps out other classes with there corp dmg and can trigger wep melee proccs..., in 6 man applying a selfsnare to yourself is kinda counter intuitive cause it's more of a catch me if you can and not a aoe dps benchmark (both really rudimentarly described).

With this said, I'm out, I promise, but I think it's important to see the skill tree as a whole and the bellow as an icing on the cake and as I said, combining right and middle bellow for middle tree as a basis to create a real tank tree is a valuable thought.

On your thread.

DPS is king, Morales are king, burst dmg is king.
a proper wb setup which is running at least 3, more like 5 BWs, 8 tanks etc will morale drop n bomb you to pieces is my assumption, 1200 dmg per BW, 1200 over 3 sec with raze. Not speaking of WW supp, slayers DD etc. that's only 13 out of 24.
BWs hit really hard, even with full conq on a BO.

your group has 0 dps, an attrition war is usually never a win. at least not with ICD on tactic and scalers, in my opinion it even shifted more into M2 drop.
To the middle specc I've written enough I think. No DPS, etc. Full Conq and you got wounds cap with tactic + conq procc if you want, no need to spec for it to gain wounds and run that bellow. If the gear is below conq,.. which is atm ruin or BL, I'm pretty sure your grp will melt. and like mentioned even with conq...

what's the counter to stationary funneling of you got no canons? rift. do that and bomb and the group is gone. better, rift the group behind it if you can and start dismantling.

TL;DR:
Can you funnel and wipe a pug WB with it? perhabs / pretty sure
Can you funnel and wipe an organized WB with it? I tend to say now.

[Dabbart]

Spoiler:

In that group comp, you "should" run the Z resistance, and get your ini from the Stat steal, which doesn't stack with the ini from Z. Edit: You also had a BG. So you had plenty of ways to lower crit chance. Definitely should of gone with the Z resistance.

I ran my BO as solo tank in a **** ton of groups. Yea, I've tried the resis/armor bellow a few times. It sucks. Y'know what "smart" players do? They ST anyone other than the BO. If you are running high in that tree, you are either A, trying for a Waaagh debuff combo, or B running super def tank. Yes, I have tried it. The AoE works decently in conjunction with certain groups, but it is still worthless.

Again to my point in the other thread on PvE skills/tactics for the Armor buffs. They allow you to farm away, or PUG without having to spend cash on armor pots. I don't see the problem. Armor stacking is enough of a problem, and forcing classes to change their rotations to accommodate for this is needless. But the potions debate is a long one...

As for the rest... I don't think you understand how things stack. Y'missed Me and Savin Me Hide stack with Challenge. And honestly, Savin Me Hide is a better magic defense than Da Greenest! Since it's a flat 20% damage decrease that can't be bypassed. And don't ever sleep on the Not in Da Face! I have won engagements with a well placed CD increaser.

I found the BO actually offers a LOT of different spec options. And I spent hundreds of gold respecing depending on the group, and my mood. You can smash like a MDPS(with SnB), then swap tactics and be super tanky popping M4s on 75s CD. You can play an assortment of different roles, the issue it really suffers from is lack of Ini, and only 1 Interrupt. The lack of super punt is Meh imo.

TLDR: The BOs strength is it's great assortment of tactics. Swap around based on what you are fighting and where. And unless you are PvEing or PuGing, Da Greenest will almost always be the weakest options. And even if it is the ONLY way to get a resis buff... Take the stat steal. Or maybe group heal #soon...

On Topic... I have no desire to read another epic novel by FootPatrol2. Edit: Didn't mean that as an insult btw. I don't agree with your stuff, but it is well thought out and explained.

[ragafury]

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

In that group comp, you "should" run the Z resistance, and get your ini from the Stat steal, which doesn't stack with the ini from Z. Edit: You also had a BG. So you had plenty of ways to lower crit chance. Definitely should of gone with the Z resistance.

I ran my BO as solo tank in a **** ton of groups. Yea, I've tried the resis/armor bellow a few times. It sucks. Y'know what "smart" players do? They ST anyone other than the BO. If you are running high in that tree, you are either A, trying for a Waaagh debuff combo, or B running super def tank. Yes, I have tried it. The AoE works decently in conjunction with certain groups, but it is still worthless.

Again to my point in the other thread on PvE skills/tactics for the Armor buffs. They allow you to farm away, or PUG without having to spend cash on armor pots. I don't see the problem. Armor stacking is enough of a problem, and forcing classes to change their rotations to accommodate for this is needless. But the potions debate is a long one...

As for the rest... I don't think you understand how things stack. Y'missed Me and Savin Me Hide stack with Challenge. And honestly, Savin Me Hide is a better magic defense than Da Greenest! Since it's a flat 20% damage decrease that can't be bypassed. And don't ever sleep on the Not in Da Face! I have won engagements with a well placed CD increaser.

I found the BO actually offers a LOT of different spec options. And I spent hundreds of gold respecing depending on the group, and my mood. You can smash like a MDPS(with SnB), then swap tactics and be super tanky popping M4s on 75s CD. You can play an assortment of different roles, the issue it really suffers from is lack of Ini, and only 1 Interrupt. The lack of super punt is Meh imo.

TLDR: The BOs strength is it's great assortment of tactics. Swap around based on what you are fighting and where. And unless you are PvEing or PuGing, Da Greenest will almost always be the weakest options. And even if it is the ONLY way to get a resis buff... Take the stat steal. Or maybe group heal #soon...

On Topic... I have no desire to read another epic novel by FootPatrol2. Edit: Didn't mean that as an insult btw. I don't agree with your stuff, but it is well thought out and explained.

I was aware of the stacking but you got a point on the grp setup I overlooked. good point. yeah. idk. than I'm lacking arguments of running it at all tbh edit: especially after you pointed out the value of 20% magic dmg reduction so nicely. I know really can't think of any cases where resistance is that good at all as long you have a melee target in range.

[Collateral]

Yes the greenest is pretty bad, ruined by stacking and potions. I wouldn't say though that the toughest tree is bad. Like Dabbart said, YMM and SMH are both very good abilities, which make specing into the tree quite worth it. But going all the way to CHM is prerty pointless, and Ragah explained why. Eh, I still think the greenest comes down to racial groups again, and footpatrol has some really good points that are hard to overlook. GS really seem to be designed with racial groups in mind, and a lot of things fall short when you start mixing groups. And I guess you can say that for many races.

[Dresden]

#LeaveDaToughestAlone #DinDuNuffinWrong