Question regarding playing a Black Orc, not build related.

[Darrell]

I’ve managed to get my full Beastlord set, and I have the Winds Impervious now. I bought a Genesis Warrior piece (fragment I think?) and I spent some warrants on some Strength jewelry. Managed to pick up the Conq body piece to go with the helm. I have enough medallions to buy the Conq belt but I’m sitting on them for now since my RR isn’t high enough to wear it anyway. I’ve also got my salvaging and talisman making up to about 165 by going back and hitting PQs for drops. I have slotted some low level talismans in my gear. One set uses Strength, one set uses Toughness.

This is the build I’ve been running since my last post: http://waronlinebuilder.org/#career=bo; ... ;;;0:0:0:0:

My small-scale gear is Beastlord and Mercenary hands/feet. I put on my genesis jewelry, the two pieces of jewelry I bought with warrants, and the Beastlord ring. For tactics I run Rugged, Good Wif Shield, Gork Smash and Loudmouth. My Toughness and Strength are around 520 with around 750 Wounds. Initiative is about 200.

For warband stuff I put on Ruin and Annihilator, swap the non-BL jewelry for Winds Impervious. This drops my Strength to around 300 and puts my Toughness over 700. I keep the same mastery for now (not enough gold to switch specs), and change Tactics to Good Wif Shield, I’m Da Biggest, Yoo’z See Me Blok Dat, and Rugged. Then I mostly guard and HtL a lot. I don’t feel too bad about using the same spec for that reason, and CHM gives me a bit more durability (though it often feels like no one really cares whether I have a shield or not when I’m getting blasted). I bought a 51 dps choppa off the AH along with a 534 or 634 block rating shield.

The damage certainly feels better than my previous build and I don’t feel that I’ve become too squishy, though I’m not feeling amazed by the damage yet. Being able to apply more pressure is a good feeling, rather than just lightly slapping the enemy a bit. Still have a lot of insanely frustrating moments where I feel simply outclassed for whatever reason. Not being tanky enough, not doing damage enough, making dumb mistakes, not watching the movement of the fight like I should. It’s only my own fault but I still find myself being angry with it all. I’ve avoided grouping up with the guild lately out of some embarrassment over just how poorly I perform sometimes.

I’m about 1/3 of the way into RR 39. My mastery point from 40 is going to go into Stop Hittin’ Da Runts so I can farm for gold and mats without needing to switch spec. I’m hurting for gold quite a bit now (bought my 60% mount, bought some pieces of gear, invested in more bank space to hold all the talismans I’ve made), and Dom pieces are selling for 400 gold so I need to get my cash back up. But I also need medallions. And I need emblems. Still feels like progress is happening at a snail’s pace.

I find myself wondering if what I want to do is possible, or a good idea. I don’t want to be full blown dps, I’d rather be more of a hybrid tank. Toughness at a decent level (around 650?) and then Strength, renown points invested defensively (20 Block, 10 Dodge/Disrupt, 15 Futile Strikes at RR 45). After that maybe invest 10 points into Initiative if needed to get between 200 and 250, and the last 15 points into melee crit maybe. Or 10 parry and 5 crit. Though that would be at RR 70 which feels like a lifetime. I want to stick with the sword and shield as I enjoy the extra survivability and the utility I bring with Hold the Line. I’m just concerned that by trying to make that kind of thing work I’ll find myself being neither tanky nor hitty.

I’ve been playing around with looking at armor sets and trying to plan out what I might need. I’ve thought about wearing full Conq eventually and slotting with Strength talis to make the hybrid tank thing work. Also thought about sticking with two sets; Conq/Annihilator or just full Conq for a defensive set and something like 4 BL, 3 Dom, 2 Merc for an offensive set. I just don’t know how all the stats are going to work out in the end. I want to be able to do my job as a tank and be able to bash people.

On a minor note, I’ve managed to put together some alternate appearance stuff that I think looks pretty nice. I’ve got the jaw armor which I’ve always loved. One of my guildmates was kind enough to give me some Scorched Brown dye and with some yellow trim it looks pretty good. I was getting tired of mismatched gear painted different colors.

It’s kind of dumb, but I really want to be an asset to whoever I’m playing with. I’ve gotten to the point where I’m recognizing names now and I’d like to have others recognize mine sometime. I want to do my job well and help out. So far I’ve mostly felt like I’m always coming up short of that, and the frustration gets a bit too much. I’ll end up logging into a T1 character and screwing around for a while just to calm down. Maybe it’s a bit of performance anxiety, knowing the tank is often considered the core of the group and being on the front line means 39 people behind me watching everything I do.

[Collateral]

The pacing of this game is miserably slow, that's just how it is. It's one of the reasons I don't bother with gearing alts, ever (unless you have 8 hours a day to put into it, not to mention people that will help you, i.e. good groups). But as I said before, if you are interested in the class and love it enough, you have to realize that a lot of time has to be put into gearing it properly. Thankfully dominator gloves and boots now drop from players, so that's at least a bit less to farm.

Now to your build. Seems like you decided to go with a dps build prior to rr 40, which I advised not to do for a reason. And looking at your experience and disappointment I'm not surprised. Of course, you can play however you want, but some builds will simply be more painful depending on your lvl and experience. Tanking and dpsing at the same time is one of the hardest (if no the hardest) jobs a bo can do, but it's also the best job he can do (I'm talking about small scale ofc). Your damage is low because you have only 500 str, and your crit is not great either. Like I told you, your damage depends a lot on crits. In my dps spec I'm at 34%, which is as much as some dps classes. For those numbers you need gear and rr, that's just how it goes. Now I'm not saying that you shouldn't play a dps spec without being rr 70+. I just want to tell you that you shouldn't be surprised and disappointed by your performance, because honestly it's to be expected when you are only rr 39, and not in bis gear.

When you first started you went the right way I could tell, and you were really excited. But now you kinda drifted off. I'm definitely not the greatest bo player ever, but I have almost 2 years of experience here, playing in good groups with great players, and one of the best wbs on the server, so I think I know a thing or two about the class. I said what I did for a reason. I knew you wouldn't enjoy playing as dps tank right of the bat, because it's hard and requires a lot of focus. That's why I told you to practice tanking first, then maybe go dps once you hit rr 40 and you're confident enough. You can still keep your spec as it is, but you should focus on playing your main role. Damage will come later with gear and experience. Dealing damage is not just about spamming THC. You have to hit the right targets at the right time, with the right rotations. Learn those like the back of your hand first. Learn when to swap guard and when to punt and challenge/taunt. That is SO MUCH more valuable to your team than you dealing a bit more damage.

What you want to achieve maybe seems impossible to you now, but it absolutely isn't. It just takes time. It took me 2 years (it definitely doesn't take that much time, but if you want to be very good at something, you can't do it in less than a year), but it was worth it. If you want a hybrid build, forget about dealing 4 digit crits, it just won't happen. But your damage can still be potent. For that you need at least 600+ str (my build is around 720 iirc, but that's full dps, for which you need a good group), and about 25-30% crit should be enough. I recommend to get your ini higher. Put some ini talis in your gear. You can mix sets for maximum str gain, but then you need to invest into defensive stats. Your ini is too low at 200. Aim at 220+, that should help you avoid those huge bw crits a bit more. Also, for tanking you need armour if you want to be effective. Toughness is kinda meh, around 500 is enough for a hybrid build. You can self buff it for decent numbers anyway. Conq gear is also not bad for tanking. It will give you more crit reduction and if you go for a 5 piece you get a pretty big self heal. You can definitely go that route, but I wouldn't recommend it. Conq is great for tanking in wbs, but putting str talis in it would be a waste imo, unless you have 2 full sets. Ofc you are free to do what you want.

One thing to note about full blown dps builds. If you're not confident in your group (mostly your healers), don't do it. If your healers can't keep you up when you get focused, it's useless. That's why it's a good idea to go hybrid first. You should've taken stop hitting da runts sooner tbh, so you can farm gold for potions. Don't forget about those. Str and armour pots are a must in dps/hybrid builds.

All in all I feel like you should go back on track. Tanky first, dps second. Learn the mechanics and the class more, and acquire gear as you do it. Playing with groups on comms also goes a loooong way.

If you want, tell me when you're online so we can meet up. I'll check your gear and stuff, and can also spare you some talis if you need.

[dansari]

^ Mad respect. Lots of good advice

[nelsonus]

Piggybacking on topic to get some gear advice.
As a tanky tank, for small scale grouping, what tali's should be put in conq gear? Currently I have toughness, but i'm not in love with it. I'm thinking about stacking wounds + ini and seeing how that does.

[Collateral]

Piggybacking on topic to get some gear advice.
As a tanky tank, for small scale grouping, what tali's should be put in conq gear? Currently I have toughness, but i'm not in love with it. I'm thinking about stacking wounds + ini and seeing how that does.

For tanking, armour and ini. In small scale there's no need to stack wounds massively, since you get a good amount from conq bonus anyway. One of the most important things you have to focus on as a tank is mitigating guard damage. That also means you have to focus on your block and parry as much as you can. Full conq gives you a nice block bonus which is not bad. But I would recommend to mix the sets actually since you have can't hit me for tanking.

E.g., 2p ruin gives you a very nice armour bonus. I am personally running with 2p rare fortune for a huge boost to ini, coupled with 4p conq for even more crit reduction. I think I have all armour talis in my conq gear. Getting a bl cloak is also good for an extra tali slot. Alternatively you can run with 2p genesis (cloak and jewel). Resist rings are a must for tanking, and for fourth ring you can use what you need most. I use a block genesis ring cuz I have very high ini with rare fortune, but you can use the 24 ini/wounds piece.

[nelsonus]

i appreciate the help

[rmpl]

I also have few questions, I'm using this currently http://www.ror.builders/career/black-or ... ,4462,4472:

1) How do you support your team properly? I feel like I'm not contributing enough with my black orc. Sure, I guard, taunt, challenge, get 'em etc. but what can I offer outside of the usual tank stuff? Usually I make sure that my target has a skull thumper on him and then I use Savin' me Hide if we're fighting magic users. Not in da face on healers, Ya missed me on physical dpses.
All of that yet I feel like I'm not contributing as much as my kotbs does passively by simply running auras with 5% party crit tactic and 15% more healing. Sure, I deal a bit more damage but in the grand scheme it doesn't seem to matter that much.

2) The plan mechanic frustrates me greatly, there's nothing more annoying than wasting two GDCs to get into best plan just to have your best plan ability parried/blocked. Yeah, I know you can get behind the target but it's not always possible. I also feel like Down Ya Go and Not in da Face are extremely unreliable because getting to best plan takes 2 GCDs (or 1 with Changing da Plan) and because of that, most of the time I use my Down Ya Go on a target which already has immunity just to get that reduced cd buff.

How do you guys deal with plan changing? I really, really would like to continue with my BO because orc aesthetics are great but having to go through several cooldowns to knockdown someone while other tanks can do it with a single press of a button makes me mad, so many missed opportunities.

3) I really seem struggle with the upkeep of Da Biggest!, most of the time I'll be running between targets trying to Guard or Challenge and rarely do I have time to constantly mash on the targets to provide buffs for my party. What should I do about that?

Is BO simply not for me?

[Axerker]

Spoiler:

I also have few questions, I'm using this currently http://www.ror.builders/career/black-or ... ,4462,4472:

1) How do you support your team properly? I feel like I'm not contributing enough with my black orc. Sure, I guard, taunt, challenge, get 'em etc. but what can I offer outside of the usual tank stuff? Usually I make sure that my target has a skull thumper on him and then I use Savin' me Hide if we're fighting magic users. Not in da face on healers, Ya missed me on physical dpses.
All of that yet I feel like I'm not contributing as much as my kotbs does passively by simply running auras with 5% party crit tactic and 15% more healing. Sure, I deal a bit more damage but in the grand scheme it doesn't seem to matter that much.

2) The plan mechanic frustrates me greatly, there's nothing more annoying than wasting two GDCs to get into best plan just to have your best plan ability parried/blocked. Yeah, I know you can get behind the target but it's not always possible. I also feel like Down Ya Go and Not in da Face are extremely unreliable because getting to best plan takes 2 GCDs (or 1 with Changing da Plan) and because of that, most of the time I use my Down Ya Go on a target which already has immunity just to get that reduced cd buff.

How do you guys deal with plan changing? I really, really would like to continue with my BO because orc aesthetics are great but having to go through several cooldowns to knockdown someone while other tanks can do it with a single press of a button makes me mad, so many missed opportunities.

3) I really seem struggle with the upkeep of Da Biggest!, most of the time I'll be running between targets trying to Guard or Challenge and rarely do I have time to constantly mash on the targets to provide buffs for my party. What should I do about that?

Is BO simply not for me?

So, I can't speak for BOs, because I don't play one. But here are my thoughts, based on what you wrote:

You ARE contributing enough, if you're doing everything you said you are doing. Being a tank is pretty boring. Your job is to just Gaurd, debuff, buff, and get in the way. Which brings me to my next point on tanking in general.

There are two major factors to tanking. The first is that, for the most part, your job is to CC as possible, debuff/buff as possible, and Guard as many focused targets as you can. All of which you seem to be doing. The next, and one that is often overlooked, is that targeting is LARGELY proximity-based. I would definitely say that 50-75% of enemies (in a pug setting, probably 10-15% in organized) target the closest thing to them, and never change. Especially if that thing is attacking them. Bright Wizards freak out and run away the moment you touch them. Every time (YMMV). And once they start, they never stop. They just go "AIYEEEEE!!!!!" and head to the next BO, no joke. Hit them once, move to next target, because they're essentially out of the WB and ready to log out. This sounds like a complete joke, but its not. Glass Cannons freak out when they're poked. Experienced ones won't. But most of this game is not experienced/organized play. Its pugs who are just logging in to have some fun. Don't be afraid to manipulate your enemy by breaking through the melee line and jamming up healers and ranged enemies. They don't like it when melee are around them. They scramble pretty quickly. Once people start scrambling, they focus more on retreating then fighting back. Sometimes you may die, but a lot of times your melee train will push with you. Once your melee train is past theirs, their ranged team will run away, while their melee gets abandoned while attempting to kill your own ranged team. Your team, however, will be behind you and can see what's going on. All they see is that you are running forwards while the enemy is running backwards. So that gives them the resolve to not instantly run away while the enemy melee is attacking them, like the enemy did.

^ Does not apply to plate-covered Runepriests who just outheal the 19 Destro on them.

[Collateral]

I also have few questions, I'm using this currently http://www.ror.builders/career/black-or ... ,4462,4472:

1) How do you support your team properly? I feel like I'm not contributing enough with my black orc. Sure, I guard, taunt, challenge, get 'em etc. but what can I offer outside of the usual tank stuff? Usually I make sure that my target has a skull thumper on him and then I use Savin' me Hide if we're fighting magic users. Not in da face on healers, Ya missed me on physical dpses.
All of that yet I feel like I'm not contributing as much as my kotbs does passively by simply running auras with 5% party crit tactic and 15% more healing. Sure, I deal a bit more damage but in the grand scheme it doesn't seem to matter that much.

2) The plan mechanic frustrates me greatly, there's nothing more annoying than wasting two GDCs to get into best plan just to have your best plan ability parried/blocked. Yeah, I know you can get behind the target but it's not always possible. I also feel like Down Ya Go and Not in da Face are extremely unreliable because getting to best plan takes 2 GCDs (or 1 with Changing da Plan) and because of that, most of the time I use my Down Ya Go on a target which already has immunity just to get that reduced cd buff.

How do you guys deal with plan changing? I really, really would like to continue with my BO because orc aesthetics are great but having to go through several cooldowns to knockdown someone while other tanks can do it with a single press of a button makes me mad, so many missed opportunities.

3) I really seem struggle with the upkeep of Da Biggest!, most of the time I'll be running between targets trying to Guard or Challenge and rarely do I have time to constantly mash on the targets to provide buffs for my party. What should I do about that?

Is BO simply not for me?

I'm absolutely not surprised by your feelings after you said you play a kotbs. Kotbs/chosen are such an ez mode class (especially kotbs) that playing anything after them feels weak af, and it's not entirely untrue.

Seems to me your biggest problem is that you're not utilising Changing da Plan at all, it does exactly what you asked . That ability helps you avoid those useless gcds. So if you want to knock someone down, what I usually do is change the plan into 2nd plan, then hit big swing cuz it doesn't need any targets (this will also trigger your da biggest to steal stats), and then knock down my target. If you are playing a defensive tank, you probably don't have a lot of str, so it's no wonder your abilities get defended a lot (unfortunately bo doesn't have runefang ). That's why bo excels at being an off tank in group play. They have many offensive hard hitting abilities that can really shine when you spec more offensively. So the more str you can get the better for you.

Now you should still keep in mind everything else I said in this thread. Going complete dps is most likely going to be very painful for you if you don't have a good group. So I would say to just keep doing what you do for now, and learn the mechanics of the class. Also, sounds like you switch guard too much. You're not supposed to be running back and forth throwing your guard all over the place. Sure if someone is in grave danger you have to do it, but it's for you to decide if it's really necessary or not to switch guard (mostly it's not necessary to do it all the time). Choose a dps, preferably melee, and stick to them. Focus their targets and keep your rotations on them. You are doing everything fine as far as abilities go.

Also Axerker, I have no idea how anything you said is supposed to help him figure out how the class plays.

[Axerker]

1) How do you support your team properly? I feel like I'm not contributing enough with my black orc. Sure, I guard, taunt, challenge, get 'em etc. but what can I offer outside of the usual tank stuff? Usually I make sure that my target has a skull thumper on him and then I use Savin' me Hide if we're fighting magic users. Not in da face on healers, Ya missed me on physical dpses.
All of that yet I feel like I'm not contributing as much as my kotbs does passively by simply running auras with 5% party crit tactic and 15% more healing. Sure, I deal a bit more damage but in the grand scheme it doesn't seem to matter that much.

Also Axerker, I have no idea how anything you said is supposed to help him figure out how the class plays.

He was concerned with whether or not he was contributing. I confirmed he was doing what he (his class) is supposed to do, and let him know there is more than just using skills to a class's role. Positioning and actions are a large part of tanking. He asked what he could do in order to feel like he was contributing more.