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[Marauder change] patch notes discussion (28/03/20)

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Ekundu01
Posts: 209

Re: [Marauder change] patch notes discussion (28/03/20)

Post#71 » Tue Mar 31, 2020 4:40 pm

wachlarz wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 3:37 pm

Sorry for my unprofesional text. I think U write that CS is good AND needed to be canceled to make more dmg from autoattck. U see logic in this ?
It is not so much that it is a good skill but using it to produce burst is where it can shine if you do it properly. If your swing speed on auto attack is say 2 seconds that means every 2 secs if you are in range you will auto attack. If you are performing an ability and your auto attack is set to go off it is qued up to hit as soon as you are not performing an action and still in range. So if you watch for an auto attack then hit CS only channel it for 3 hits and cancel it your auto will hit right after you cancel if you cancel it with another attack like impale the last hit from CS hits, impale hits, auto attack happens this all happens in a one sec time stamp so you get 3 hits in 1 sec. If you happened to get lucky and have the brutality proc go off right as your first auto hit the burst is not bad. I will admit i don't bother trying to do this on my mara because I think there are better choices of abilities to use in place of CS currently and if you are playing brut spec you have other options for burst vs using this method.

Doing this 1v1 is not hard but doing this type of burst in anything bigger then a 6man is hard because of all the cc flying around the timing may get screwed up. I use the same method on my Chosen with Relentless to simulate some burst that chosen lacks.

On a BO though Tree hit combo is better to use for the full duration because it hits a lot harder and actually does decent damage for a channeled ability. Imo CS should be doing damage closer to what Tree hit combo does with You Wot going.
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Grock
Posts: 532

Re: [Marauder change] patch notes discussion (28/03/20)

Post#72 » Tue Mar 31, 2020 4:53 pm

VkdswWH wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 2:14 pm
Sava/brut - was nerfed long time ago and now its only for ranked SC (because you dont have a choice). U can try to play it but only with guardboy close to you, because you dont have good cc and mobility you die for a knock. People dont like it.
brutality/monstro (for knock) - mem spec for kiling new players ans steal frags in sc.
Did i get it straight that you saying Mara is so bad that it is only useful in the most hardcore setting there is? :lol:
You know, literally every other melee dps in the game requires a constant guard buddy to survive in any remotely competent group environment

VkdswWH wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 2:14 pm
Montsto/brut with full armore tali - trolling spec fo kill some stupid order meleDps who try to kill 4500-5000+ armor guy with - armore pen + self heal and cant run out from marauder.
People can't run away from a class with Charge, ranged Pull, 10s snare immunity and ranged morale Root? What a surprise :lol:
Orkni
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Grock
Posts: 532

Re: [Marauder change] patch notes discussion (28/03/20)

Post#73 » Tue Mar 31, 2020 5:03 pm

Nefarian78 wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 3:27 pm
New tactic should make Wave of Terror cost no AP and reduce healing taken by 50% instead of draining morale in addition of having it's range reduced by 10 feet. Counters Order's 50% group healbuff (that Destro has no way of countering since DoK nerf) and opens multiple build choices for both WB and Smallscale
50% group healbuff? the what? :shock:

On-demand 50% AoE healing debuff is a morale4 level of power, thats absolutely not something that should be a regular ability.
WL doesn't get any incoming heal debuff in their kit at all, they only get outgoing if they go full middle tree, but then they gonna miss a KD and lots of pet damage potential.

Now im not saying mara doesn't need buffs, but the type of things some people here are asking for sound a bit crazy

The recent changes are first step on a long way
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Foofmonger
Posts: 163

Re: [Marauder change] patch notes discussion (28/03/20)

Post#74 » Tue Mar 31, 2020 5:08 pm

wachlarz wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 3:37 pm
Foofmonger wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 2:43 pm
wachlarz wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 2:33 pm

So U telling that CS is " so good " that U need interrut it to make dmg from auto attack. Just WOW, just WOW. I must try this on my BO and 3hit combo. Intterut skill and auto attack. My dmg go up UP UP. Ppl U trolling on this topic?
No, I am not trolling. Have you done the math yet? I'm gonna assume by both the quality of your writing, and the tone of your post, you haven't done any math.

Why don't you go do the math, and then come back here and then talk about your "amazing opinion". In fact, I'll help you out. Go to convlusive slashing. Then go to a dummy and test your damage. Record how much damage each tick of convulsive slashing does. Now, multiple that number by 3. That's the total damage CS will deal within a single GCD. Now go compare that number to your other abilities, and tell me what is higher. Happy to wait here and see the results.

Thanks.
Sorry for my unprofesional text. I think U write that CS is good AND needed to be canceled to make more dmg from autoattck. U see logic in this ?
It's not an ideal situation, I don't disagree with you. It's a silly ability design overall. However, it's a lot better than it used to be, on WAR live convulsive slashing was 100% worthless and you wouldn't even put it on your hotbar. At least it's "usable" here, even if you have to get a little creative with the "how".

If they allowed AAs to fire off while CS was channeling the ability would be great. I don't know if that's possible with the code though.

Foofmonger
Posts: 163

Re: [Marauder change] patch notes discussion (28/03/20)

Post#75 » Tue Mar 31, 2020 5:13 pm

Grock wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 5:03 pm
Nefarian78 wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 3:27 pm
New tactic should make Wave of Terror cost no AP and reduce healing taken by 50% instead of draining morale in addition of having it's range reduced by 10 feet. Counters Order's 50% group healbuff (that Destro has no way of countering since DoK nerf) and opens multiple build choices for both WB and Smallscale
50% group healbuff? the what? :shock:

On-demand 50% AoE healing debuff is a morale4 level of power, thats absolutely not something that should be a regular ability.
WL doesn't get any incoming heal debuff in their kit at all, they only get outgoing if they go full middle tree, but then they gonna miss a KD and lots of pet damage potential.

Now im not saying mara doesn't need buffs, but the type of things some people here are asking for sound a bit crazy

The recent changes are first step on a long way
While I don't always agree with Orkni, in situations like this I 100% agree with Orkni, even as a Marauder player. Pie in the sky random ridiculous buff requests are not a good way to make arguments, regardless of what faction or class you play on, and just shows a lack of understanding of balance combined with inherent "buff my guy" bias. A low cooldown, huge range, regular ability, group AOE heal debuff is so pie in the sky delusional of a request I don't know how anyone could ask for that with a straight face.

Remember all, the goal of balancing a game is to make it balanced. Not to make the character you play overpowered. That's not balancing at all, that's just favoritism. Also to Orkni's point, balance should be done in "iterations", not massive changes/reworks all at once that are nearly impossible to A/B test. This change in particular is important to do first (adjusting the damage scaling) so that the rest of the class can be balanced around this better baseline damage.

Now, on the topic of heal debuff, this is a legitimate question on the Marauder as they have a really wacky debuff that was super nerfed on live and just kind of sits in this weird place. It's a 25% healdebuff that doesn't require to be specced, unlike most of the 50% heal debuffs which are talented. So that's a nice bonus, you get a little heal debuff no matter what. The problem the ability has is that to make it 50%, you have to spec for it and waste an important tactic slot for it, which means its more or less objectively worse then just an ability, and therefore is inferior to pretty much every heal debuff in the game. Yes the tactic gets you a "little bit" of extra healing, which was stupid when Mythic designed it and is still stupid now (since you know, the point of healing debuffing someone is to kill them, not leech heals off of them). For a reminder, the tactic used to be a 75% heal debuff, which is what it was balanced around in the first place. The design of the Marauder was not to ever have a 50% heal debuff, but to have either a 25% (which is crap, but free), or a 75% (which is worth the tactic slot), unfortunately 75% heal debuffs are too strong in this game, so they nerfed the tactic to 50% and never redesigned anything, which was a lazy, half-assed attempt at balance.

What should be done? It's very simple, parity. Reset the Savagery tree to where it was on live (TB is 5 points, Draining Swipes 13). Keep the Draining Swipes changes (half cooldown/half duration). SWAP Draining Swipes and Tainted Claw, and make Tainted Claw a 50% heal debuff. Remove the 11 point Tainted Claw tactic, and just put whatever in there to replace it. Now the Marauder has a 50% heal debuff that doesn't require a tactic but requires a 13 point investment into Savagery, a new (hopefully decent) 11 point tactic, and trades having a 25% healdebuff at baseline for the AP gain reduction debuff. So for example, this is a way to give the Marauder access to the same kind of heal debuffs everyone else gets, without making them overpowered in the process (you give and you take).

Edit: Of course, that's not the only thing that could be done to tweak the Marauders heal debuff, and you could do a lot of different things, but that was just one example. You could move it to Brutality, you could take it out as a baseline ability and just make it 100% tactic based (so give Tainted Claw a different debuff), etc...
Last edited by Foofmonger on Tue Mar 31, 2020 5:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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VkdswWH
Posts: 41

Re: [Marauder change] patch notes discussion (28/03/20)

Post#76 » Tue Mar 31, 2020 5:14 pm

, ranged Pull
its broken. just wait 1 sec and jump - pull go to cd. :D or parry it and pull go to cd or run out range and pull go to...
Last edited by VkdswWH on Tue Mar 31, 2020 5:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Vicgrimm - marauder

Sofong
Posts: 113

Re: [Marauder change] patch notes discussion (28/03/20)

Post#77 » Tue Mar 31, 2020 5:20 pm

Grock wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 5:03 pm
Nefarian78 wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 3:27 pm
New tactic should make Wave of Terror cost no AP and reduce healing taken by 50% instead of draining morale in addition of having it's range reduced by 10 feet. Counters Order's 50% group healbuff (that Destro has no way of countering since DoK nerf) and opens multiple build choices for both WB and Smallscale
50% group healbuff? the what? :shock:

On-demand 50% AoE healing debuff is a morale4 level of power, thats absolutely not something that should be a regular ability.
WL doesn't get any incoming heal debuff in their kit at all, they only get outgoing if they go full middle tree, but then they gonna miss a KD and lots of pet damage potential.

Now im not saying mara doesn't need buffs, but the type of things some people here are asking for sound a bit crazy

The recent changes are first step on a long way
they dont spec it cos WL kill so fast they dont even need a heal debuff to kill

Foofmonger
Posts: 163

Re: [Marauder change] patch notes discussion (28/03/20)

Post#78 » Tue Mar 31, 2020 5:23 pm

Sofong wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 5:20 pm
Grock wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 5:03 pm
Nefarian78 wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 3:27 pm
New tactic should make Wave of Terror cost no AP and reduce healing taken by 50% instead of draining morale in addition of having it's range reduced by 10 feet. Counters Order's 50% group healbuff (that Destro has no way of countering since DoK nerf) and opens multiple build choices for both WB and Smallscale
50% group healbuff? the what? :shock:

On-demand 50% AoE healing debuff is a morale4 level of power, thats absolutely not something that should be a regular ability.
WL doesn't get any incoming heal debuff in their kit at all, they only get outgoing if they go full middle tree, but then they gonna miss a KD and lots of pet damage potential.

Now im not saying mara doesn't need buffs, but the type of things some people here are asking for sound a bit crazy

The recent changes are first step on a long way
they dont spec it cos WL kill so fast they dont even need a heal debuff to kill
Well it's an outgoing heal debuff, so it wouldn't do that anyway regardless of whether WLs killed slow or fast.

Outgoing heal debuffs reduce the amount of healing a healer does, not he amount of healing you take from a healer. That means they don't do anything unless you put them on healers. Does that make sense?

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Bohavwn
Posts: 16

Re: [Marauder change] patch notes discussion (28/03/20)

Post#79 » Tue Mar 31, 2020 6:46 pm

Grock wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 4:53 pm
VkdswWH wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 2:14 pm
Sava/brut - was nerfed long time ago and now its only for ranked SC (because you dont have a choice). U can try to play it but only with guardboy close to you, because you dont have good cc and mobility you die for a knock. People dont like it.
brutality/monstro (for knock) - mem spec for kiling new players ans steal frags in sc.
Did i get it straight that you saying Mara is so bad that it is only useful in the most hardcore setting there is? :lol:
You know, literally every other melee dps in the game requires a constant guard buddy to survive in any remotely competent group environment
No. He is saying that even though it is not as good as other dps classes, you don't have any choice but to play brut/sav in SC play as a marauder. Because any other spec is even worse.

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Nefarian78
Posts: 396

Re: [Marauder change] patch notes discussion (28/03/20)

Post#80 » Wed Apr 01, 2020 4:19 am

Grock wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 5:03 pm
50% group healbuff? the what? :shock:

On-demand 50% AoE healing debuff is a morale4 level of power, thats absolutely not something that should be a regular ability.
WL doesn't get any incoming heal debuff in their kit at all, they only get outgoing if they go full middle tree, but then they gonna miss a KD and lots of pet damage potential.

Now im not saying mara doesn't need buffs, but the type of things some people here are asking for sound a bit crazy

The recent changes are first step on a long way
a 50% cleansable aoe healdebuff for 5s on a 10s cooldown isn't a m4 type ability. DoKs had a 50% heal debuff that had close to 100% uptime in aoe and had always been fine until "someone" cried to the point of getting it stealth-nerfed, meanwhile letting Order keep their 50% group wide healbuff for 0 investment with 100% uptime.

Now that Order has better morale play than Destro (The new morale stopper is doing nothing whatsoever, BWs are getting to m2s in 10-15s again and Wave of Terror is actually pumping 33 morale instead of draining 250) i'd say it's time to balance the raw healing/damage aspect of the factions.

Giving a spec that has literally 0 aoe damage or utility outside one ability isn't going to make Brutality Maras op. It's opening up a viable trade in warband damage for an aoe healdebuff. A rr70 Brutality mara with Wave of Terror + Tactic can only pick 1 thing from the Monstrosity Tree. The only "Op" setup could be +2 Sov, but i personally don't think it's an issue. There's plenty of builds that are opened by +2 Sov that are incredibly potent.

Remember it was Order players that wanted to "even" the morale playing field when the game was always balanced with Order = better raw output and Destro = better morale play. Now this raw output mess has to be fixed.
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