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[Dok] 3 tank and 3 Dok Premade

Black Guard, Sorceress, Witch Elf, Disciple of Khaine
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Arena
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Re: [Dok] 3 tank and 3 Dok Premade

Post#21 » Mon Oct 02, 2017 8:21 pm

peterthepan3 wrote:Relying on two melee doks in any map other than Eternal Citadel to provide sufficient heals vs a competent order premade = suicide (particularly versus ranged comps, good luck getting off any heals whatsoever).

1 dedicated healer is essential if you wish to fight equal opposition.
Example of melee dok in a group against premade. I think doks can provide exceptable healing amound after all. Yes, we loose, but is it because of mdd dok's heals too low? Maybe it because we first time play together against premade?
Should i mention that this screenshot was made in a first day i came back after 10 months break?
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Foltestik
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Re: [Dok] 3 tank and 3 Dok Premade

Post#22 » Mon Oct 02, 2017 8:28 pm

you get hard asskicked not sure if its good example how melee dok heal :D

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GodlessCrom
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Re: [Dok] 3 tank and 3 Dok Premade

Post#23 » Mon Oct 02, 2017 8:29 pm

I dunno if I would use that screenshot as evidence of anything positive man. Yes, you healed almost as much as their RP but I suspect thats because their RP didnt have that much damage to heal, considering Confusion had 10 kills (ksing bastard! ;) ) and Csi had 8. Which brings to mind the issues others have brought up: lack of kill potential. Granted, Fusion are like The Great Tryhard Hope on this server so no shame to losing to them if you arent Starilas or LoB or something but I dunno. A non-dok group might have had similar issues if the skill gap was there, who knows.
Rush in and die, dogs - I was a man before I was a king!

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peterthepan3
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Re: [Dok] 3 tank and 3 Dok Premade

Post#24 » Mon Oct 02, 2017 9:32 pm

Arena wrote:
peterthepan3 wrote:Relying on two melee doks in any map other than Eternal Citadel to provide sufficient heals vs a competent order premade = suicide (particularly versus ranged comps, good luck getting off any heals whatsoever).

1 dedicated healer is essential if you wish to fight equal opposition.
Example of melee dok in a group against premade. I think doks can provide exceptable healing amound after all. Yes, we loose, but is it because of mdd dok's heals too low? Maybe it because we first time play together against premade?
Should i mention that this screenshot was made in a first day i came back after 10 months break?
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I don't get what your point is. In that scenario, you had two dedicated healers - yet even with the extra healing from your DPS DOK, it didn't prove to be enough. I agree with you and think that a well-played DPS DOK can pump out very nice heals, but if you have two dedicated healers, focus more on damage. You should easily have been able to top the damage in that scenario with two healers in the group.
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freshour
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Re: [Dok] 3 tank and 3 Dok Premade

Post#25 » Mon Oct 02, 2017 11:11 pm

peterthepan3 wrote:Relying on two melee doks in any map other than Eternal Citadel to provide sufficient heals vs a competent order premade = suicide (particularly versus ranged comps, good luck getting off any heals whatsoever).

1 dedicated healer is essential if you wish to fight equal opposition.
I agree that one dedicated healer is essential. I would really like to see a group with 2 DD DoK's, and only 1 other dedicated healer do anything to a good group. In reality, they would be busy just transfer essence spamming and channel heals, wouldn't be doing parry debuff, or any other actual DPS moves and no one dies.

The only way the DD DoK works, two of them even more so is if they are using their damaging moves, syncing up Devour Essence, and they have an armor debuff. If you don't have a mara/tank who can armor debuff you do literally no damage at all unless it is that random unguarded runepriest that is always wondering around in pug sc's (swear it always happens).

The way it works is we do a lot of physical damage, I know we have some non physical damage but yah, most of it is physical (like everything else in this game melee), everyone and their brother/mother/sister stacks armor. So without the armor debuff you do no damage. With it, you basically deal double damage. So you need that first.

If you have two DD doks, you need to make sure one lands the parry debuff, and both are using consume enchantment on the nec classes like SM for example (this wrecks them). They also both need to time their DE's or just have one (usually me) that notices the other DOK (Divy who is never in coms) hit his, so you use yours. You need a lot to make it work vs good groups, and if you fail in any of those categories and you go against a good team like say any of the ones in Mr. Clowny's guild, you will get absolutely facestomped 500-0. It isn't really up for debate, I've played melee DoK more on ROR than just about everyone minus 1-2 people only 1 of which plays a whole lot now - in the 6 man style of play. I've tried every spec, every gear swap, every RR swap, literally everything. You need an armor debuff, and you REALLY need 2 dedicated healers because relying on yourself for heals is a direct correlation with less DPS dealt the more you have to heal minus when your M1 is up.
Last edited by freshour on Mon Oct 02, 2017 11:54 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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peterthepan3
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Re: [Dok] 3 tank and 3 Dok Premade

Post#26 » Mon Oct 02, 2017 11:38 pm

^ this. buy yourself an armor debuff bot.
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freshour
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Re: [Dok] 3 tank and 3 Dok Premade

Post#27 » Tue Oct 03, 2017 12:03 am

A general way I look at it if I only have two dedicated healers is whenever I'm doing more heals than damage, something went wrong. Either our healers were getting bombed (be it of position or playing more mobile classes like WH/WL), our guards weren't swapping, or a mix of things like that happened.

You always want to be doing more damage than healing - OR - something went wrong with your team or yourself.

Generally I'll end up somewhere on the top of the damage chart (doesn't really matter) but I try to have around 20-50% more damage than heals. That tells me that our guards did well, I wasn't having to TE spam (sometimes you just have to like on a pet), and I was doing as much ability damage without my channel (you don't AA during that so less overall damage since we don't usually have a spirit debuff) and things went well. If you notice yourself constantly outhealing your damage and you don't have empowered transfer on or aren't AP drain spec, you are not playing right and using your core damage abilities to their fullest potential and you are picking up too much slack from other healers.

Sure there are some discrepancies in this, but that is one way I've been able to evaluate an SC based on my damage/healing alone that proves true quite a bit of the time.

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Arena
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Re: [Dok] 3 tank and 3 Dok Premade

Post#28 » Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:13 am

peterthepan3 wrote: I don't get what your point is. In that scenario, you had two dedicated healers - yet even with the extra healing from your DPS DOK, it didn't prove to be enough. I agree with you and think that a well-played DPS DOK can pump out very nice heals, but if you have two dedicated healers, focus more on damage. You should easily have been able to top the damage in that scenario with two healers in the group.
It wasn't enough because i came for one day and whole party didn't play with each other before, and we played against traned premade patry.
Here another example, if only winned scenarios required with kills and damage. I have lots of such.
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Toldavf
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Re: [Dok] 3 tank and 3 Dok Premade

Post#29 » Tue Oct 03, 2017 11:41 am

I agree with peter on this. The additional damage and probably more importantly burst outweigh the additional healing in the standard 6 vs 6 play.
Khorlar, Thorvold, Sjohgar, Anareth, Toldavf, Hartwin, Gotrin and others -_-

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