New WE player - can't kill healers?

[Martok]

Martok - that's kinda the answer I was hoping for - something to help me make a conscious decision about a reroll.

Thank-you. I try and be direct.

For the record I do have a Witch Elf toon here, currently at level 40/56. I play it from time to time and don't really encounter much of a problem in finding my niche. With a Witch Elf you can easily make your own niche.

Is this correct?

Except for this part:

3. If I want to play WE i should do it in "easy mode" not caring about dmg numbers, actually being usefull for anything or my purpose in life. Maybe get someone to play in duo so two players can have a feeling of actually having one working character doing what it's supposed to do.

One does not play a Witch Elf in easy mode. The class itself is easy mode. To really suck at playing one would take more effort than being successful at playing one. That is how I am defining the term "easy mode." My other point is playing any toon becomes useful if the goals in playing your class revolve around doing what you can to help your side win as opposed to playing your class in an attempt to satisfy someone else's need or desire for you to play your class in a manner which makes them happy.

And yes, my philosophy, as expressed many times within the content of my various videos, does center around the concept that if I help my team win an open RvR fight or a scenario and in that particular case I may have gotten no death-blows nor did top damage then I was still useful and successful because my team won. As an example, and I have the video of this, a couple of days ago I was in a Tor Anroc SC during which I executed a knock-back which sent four Destruction players flying into the lava and all four of them died there. I got no damage credit for that nor did I get credit for the DB's. However that act allowed our side to sized the bauble and subsequently win the SC. Yet someone else in the SC still gave me crap about executing the knock-back.

You are never going to make everyone happy here. Ever. Therefore my advice is play the game to have fun and you will enjoy success.

Finally, I employed the "purpose in life" phrase as a metaphor. However, if playing this game has anything, anything, to do with your actual purpose in life then all I can say is whatever answers you seek are not to be found here.

[Koro]

You are never going to make everyone happy here. Never. Therefore my advice is play the game to have fun and you will enjoy success.

I understand your point but - I don't want to make everyone happy. Probably you assumed that from my talks about fulfilling certain roles? Anyway It's not about that - the thing is fulfilling the role that I've experienced on Witch Elf when I was playing it during game launch time was extremely fun for me. Hence whole disappointment how different it feels now and how supposedly it's (by general consensus) how things "should" be, therefore - never will be changed.

There was a beauty in tactical approach of playing a stealth character. The way you instantly died when tanks/bruisers successfully protected their healers and the way healers died when they wandered alone. I agree completely with you in regards how the game was designed to be team based one and in old times when WE could really gank stuff it truly feeled that way for me. I had a real feeling of contribution and work with my team when I was the class designated to remove high AOE dps/Healer characters. Sure I was working kina away from the main brawl, behind enemy lines so to speak - but it doesn't mean I wasn't with my team! It was my niche and I was feeling good at it!

Now with current meta - all of it feels like it's no longer there - forever gone only to live as a nostalgic memory from the game that once was.

I still enjoy my comeback, thrills of PvP at the press of a button but the more I play my WE the more I realize it is no longer a class for me. Feeling of contribution towards your side's victory is gone - the assasin niche and tactical gameplay is gone. High risk and high reward gameplay is gone - only place left for my toon is inside of a brawl, and I know that is not a place for me to have fun in on such class. Another alternative would be I guess roaming around the RvR areas to gank unpreppared/undergeared toons but what fun is there in that in the long run?

Thank you all for the feedback but all the information I've got clearly shows that it's time to burry my dream of an Witch Elf in memories of the past.

[Zxul]

In general healers die, 1v1, to:

1. Burst during KD- not likely if healer is specced defensively (anticrit/init- in addition toughness/wounds is a good idea).
2. Sufficient sustained pressure- healer will eventually run out of ap/se after all. Requires having sufficient time on healer without his friends arriving, as well as having sufficient ap regen to be able to keep the pressure. Heal debuff really helps.

If you can't do one of those the solution is to bring a friend- being tag teamed by 2 whs is something which we all know and love. For that matter, I remember running into 3 whs teams, there is a popular meme which illustrates the situation.

[wos]

I know this mite sound silly but i use to run the damage over time spec on 1v1 healers and stand in front so there aa kocks off there detant you wont have to work as hard to put out more dps for longer

[Starx]

This game is not kind to the assassin archetype.

The best way I can explain this is by comparing it to early expansion/vanilla WoW rogue. In WSG/AB rogue was a part of every single premade because they filled a particular role extremely well. Dealing with enemy FC, and taking the other teams objectives. The community in warhammer usually frowns upon "PvE" in scenario and don't really give a **** about winning but more about kills unfortunately and a specialist class that is adept at playing objects inevitably gets screwed over. SC maps are much smaller than BG's in wow and taking points usually is a bigger deal in WoW than it is in WAR anyways. So first thing we have is the game systems itself is already against the class.

Secondly the game mechanics don't really allow for a class to function well solo, this game is 40% skill 40% comp and 20% gear. There are so many damage reduction mechanics, healing is by its own nature incredibly OP bc its balanced around heal debuff, groups can't afford to take specialist classes they need ever drop of DPS they can get focusing on the same target to get kills and when you play WE/WH in a groups like this it strips them of any unique class playstyle or identity and now you are just playing a slayer, with light armor, that deals less damage, and has worse utility.

Besides the engineer and magus WE/WH were hit hardest by the CC changes on live, playing an assassin style class when you can only CC someone every 30 seconds and most of the time they have immunities anyways...

Devs are going the right route trying to give the WH/WE some kind of major utility outside of just turning them into taller slayers or skimpier choppas, was the morale pump angle the right thing? IDK its already been nerfed so maybe.

[Korsario]

This game isnt really based in 1v1 Koro, try tog et another WE friend.

[Xergon]

Spoiler:

So...
I was playing Warhammer very long time ago when it was first released. I've been playing here for a month in rather casual fashion (couple hours a day), and enjoying it so far but I'm struggling a lot in any PvP content.

Question is - are WE reworked here to fulfill some new, secret role that I don't understand or is it normal that no matter what I do I cannot kill any healer in scenarios even in pure 1vs1 situations. I'm not talking only about those tanky Warpriests - I'm talking about all of the healer types.

Maybe someone could advise me a build for scenarios/PvP roaming where WE fulfills it's role of being an assasin? Or maybe I'm doing it wrong and class is expected to be a brawler now with some new metabuild?
Another possible explanation for this happening (by "this" i mean difference in experience I had when playing WE back in the day) is - everyone doing scenarios pre-40 here is a twink and it's expected that any new players compete with serious disadvantage and things will go back to normal later on - will they?

I don't mean to offend anyone - I'm amazed by the effort of current development group supporting the game after so many years since official developper ditched it. I'm just looking for some answers mainly cause ... well - from what I remember this game is heavily focused on PvP and each class has assigned a role in different PvP situations (Sieges, Battlegrounds, Scenarios etc), and from what I understand only role WE is good at is surprise ganking of the squishies (mages, healers etc) so if that doesn't work... then what is the point if you can play a class with role that actually does something usefull like brawler, AOE DD, tank or healer?

By now readers of this post probably get general idea of what kind of advice I'm asking for. Is it normal that a toon cannot accomplish pretty much only role it's supposed to be designed (at leas originally designed) for? What am I doing wrong?

Its group based game not 1v1/dueling one. Yes, some classes can perform well in 1v1 scenarios but thats not common thing.

As WE/WH you are be able to kill most DPS classes and even some Offensive specced Tanks, but the more defensive enemy you meet its gonna be harder for you to kill it. You can burst some healers who have no clue how to detaunt or pot up instead only healing, but if you meet good healers who use their tools properly, then you will not kill it 1v1, and thats very proper way, they cannot kill you aswell, unless u let them dot you to death.

As i said its group based game, you can look how 6vs6 battles goes, its mostly DPS vs DPS fight and who will be able to provide proper burst combination better, wins. Very rarely they focus healers, instead DPS.

You can try roaming solo because Stealth ability is very powerful tool, but dont expect that every kill will be easy and possible.
WE/WH advantage is suprise, but if you fight someone who is not suprised and ready for you, you lose your advantage.

Path of Carnage is mastery focused on AoE, together with Moral Drain tactic or Ini/Heal Debuff proc you can be somewhat usefull in AoE scenario but it will be one of the weakest AoE's from all available DPS on destro.
Path of Suffering is designeted to be heal debuff and armor penetration path, but that doesnt mean its meant to kill healers, you can use those debuffs on target thats gonna be healed.
Path of Treachery is focused on providing maximum burst output damage with some CC/armor penetration skills.

But again, any of those path is not focused on 1v1 anyone or anything.

[Anthr]

The WE you remember should never have existed anyways. Its balanced now.

[Starx]

Also want to add, for playing solo in scens nothing is going to give you better insight in when the best time to open is than playing a healer for a while.

Popping on a healer when their group is just beating up some poor gobbo 4v1 on a flag 20ft away vs popping on a healer when their group is 50ft away, dealing with los issues, taking dmg, fighting something that wont really let them just turn and peel will make a monstrous difference. Ya you might not kill the healer but you will get their group killed if you tie a healer up for 5+ seconds at the right time. Check your sc scoreboard all the time looks who is doing work, make their life hell.

[Koro]

This game isnt really based in 1v1 Koro, try tog et another WE friend.

There's 3 of us playing together here (friends playing dok and shammy) but I seriously don't see a reason why should 2 people play 2 characters and be content with contribution similar to what 1 toon of different class can do. The way I see it we could just aswell roll 2 ranged and pop people more effectively from the distance, without risking mele range and probably still being more tough when needed.

The WE you remember should never have existed anyways. Its balanced now.

I've seen games doing stealth/assasin arhetypes in a balanced way, I've seen games that overdid the arhetype forgetting how much advantage tactical invisibility gives, and I've seen Warhammer WE on Return of Reckoning. I consider myself a fanboy of a rogue/assasin archetype - played it in multiple MMOs and MOBA-s. Let me tell you there isn't a single tittle I could mention from top of my head, not a single momment in any MMO developpment where stealth arhetype felt as butchered and misplaced as I've seen here in current meta. I love the stealth classes - every single aspect of them, but to me Warhammer in current reincarnation that you have on the server simply doesn't have assasin class despite advertising (at least at the game launch and judging by general design back then) one of the classes as such.

Is it balanced? Should it exists or shoudn't? I won't judge - all I know is that majority of games that I've played could do it the way that prodived me with fun experience - Warhammer:RoR does not. In other games sometimes developpers needed to tone things down due to community backlash like it was for example in WoW but rogues still remained rogues and in no one-s mind ever crossed the idea that rogue "shoudn't" have fair chances to kill a healer archetype. Warhammer:RoR is an exception I haven't seen anywhere else. It doesn't necesairly mean that it's a bad exception - after all gamers often seek original and refreshing content and not just copy-paste of another mmo-s. Still it remains an exception that for me (and probably large number of people with similar tastes) completly removes joy of playing the class.

Then again only thing I could blame here is advertising the class in a certain way and giving players false perception of it. Many other people in this topic seem to think WE is fine - maybe it is, but to me it's certainly not an assasin/rogue/stealth archetype many similar to me gamers known loved and enjoyed, and in my opinion it does take away form the game when compared to original state I remember on launch day and months after.