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Sorc lack of CC/HD

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Frozenover
Posts: 1

Sorc lack of CC/HD

Post#1 » Fri Mar 19, 2021 2:20 pm

With the recent implementation of Trivial Blows, the sorc/bw critical damage output is reduced by 25% against a target with Trivial Blows IV. They likely respecialised from Futile Strikes III, which means that they are 15% more likely to be crit. However due to the sorc/bw class mechanic, and crit buffs on targets from tanks, this does not significantly mitigate the damage reduction from specialising TB IV, and sorcs ultimately have their damage output nerfed by around 20-25%. After testing in the duel arena (115% crit damage using 5-piece offensive sov), my WoP on an unguarded target with no resist buffs goes from 2400 critical hit to 1800 when they run trivial blows IV. When resist buffed, it goes down to 1400 (as in any 6v6). On a guarded target this is 700. If against a competent rDPS/healer that detaunts the sorc this is 350. Also note, the Sorc is most often focused in ranked and can rarely produce a full rotation being a stationary caster.

The Sorcs strongest spell cannot hit this low to justify the poor level of CC available to the sorc or the backlash mechanic. SH have pounce, double armor, speed increase, knockback and whatnot in addition to a healdebuff, great sustain damage and can burst hard with their M1.

Sorc has .... an aoe root, which is a no go in ranked giving everyone free immunities and that gets broken instantly. It’s not hard to catch a sorc, AM aoe puddle, rDPS snaring you, and 2 tanks and mDPS charging/pouncing for you. You need to rely on M2 focused mind (60 sec CD) and flee + AP pot. And oh, it’s also bugged, so that sometimes it doesn’t break tanks challenge (got this on video).

Hence, if the sorc damage output is taken away (and even if it wouldn’t have been!) the sorc deserves better CC/HD to counter this. The BW already have a HD but sorc does not so I suggest starting there, making the 13p calamity skill a HD. The base damage of the skill is very low, and the healing doesn’t proc through absorb and is 50% lower against a guarded target so I think this makes perfect sense. Secondly, since root is useless as outlined above, I suggest a remake of the skill. A ranged self-knockback similar to what the SH has that doubles the sorcs armour would be amazing. Please consider letting the sorc have at least one good kiting tool that is on par with SH.

On another note, I am not sure if the introduction of Trivial Blows was a response to high damage numbers from aoe Sorc/BW in city. But I would like to point out that the abilities that sorc damage relies on (infernal wave/ice spikes) have a 65/100 ft range (depending on spec) and is therefore producing a lot fluff damage outside of the focused aoe blob that actually does not lead to any direct kills.

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Caduceus
Posts: 235

Re: Sorc lack of CC/HD

Post#2 » Sat Mar 20, 2021 6:19 am

It's clear that Sorc needs something.

Despite its extremely double-edged class mechanic, Sorc damage has been falling behind other classes for a while, most notably in organized high level play.

The introduction of TB constituted another serious nerf to a class that has already been struggling to keep itself relevant at all modes of play.
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Aezron
Posts: 55

Re: Sorc lack of CC/HD

Post#3 » Sat Mar 20, 2021 9:32 am

Yes I also agree with above posts, Sorc have been lacking a few things for a while and this latest patch makes it even worse.

Some of the issues I have identified, and made suggestions for, previously have been:

- Shadow Knives being less DPS than Pit of Shades, with no added utility and also being the 13 point Destruction ability.
Suggestion was to increase the damage to a more suitable number and move the Initiative debuff from Black Horror to Shadow Knives.

- Lack of healing debuff
Suggestion was to move Gloom of Night to 5 point Destruction (and possiby becomes a 1s cast instead of 2s), Black Horror moves to 5 point Calamity and mirror the BW healing debuff Playing With Fire (but Black Horror is a Curse and uses Spirit Damage)

- Shades of Death is basically useless
Sorcs effectively lack a 13 point Agony ability, as Shades of Death is so bad literally anything else is more worth spending a GCD on. This reduces build variety as you can't really mainspec Agony as a Sorc.
Suggestion was to do anything to this ability, anything at all would be more useful than it is.

- Recover Energy is basically useless
The 3 point Agony tactic is actually worse than the core tactic Devour Energy, and Sorcs usually don't spec Devour Energy either. This also contributes to reduced build variety and that you can't really mainspec Agony as a Sorc.
Suggestion was to change it into a tactic that increases Disrupt and Block strikethrough based on Dark Magic, e.g. "Increase Disrupt and Block strikethrough by 2% for every 10 Dark Magic you have". This would bridge some of the gap between BW Flashfire and Sorcs having no way of combating avoidances of targets.

I also agree with you Frozen that Absorb Vitality feel a bit lacking for being a 13 point ability, something small should probably be done to improve it. Either change it to spirit damage, increase the damage somewhat, or add an initial tick that strikes immediately as you cast it.

More ideas from other people have been discussed in this thread viewtopic.php?f=73&t=42340

I hope the devs take a look at some of the issues that Sorc have, especially now that our class mechanic got nerfed indirectly by TB.

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Bozzax
Posts: 2197

Re: Sorc lack of CC/HD

Post#4 » Sat Mar 20, 2021 9:41 am

Problem of AV is the big CD (disrupt, clns)
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wargrimnir
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Re: Sorc lack of CC/HD

Post#5 » Sat Mar 20, 2021 3:03 pm

PSA
Generally when it comes time to look at classes we only dig around one place for suggestions. viewforum.php?f=95

If you're not posting your structured suggestions there, they aren't going to be reviewed.
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Shanell
Posts: 243

Re: Sorc lack of CC/HD

Post#6 » Sat Mar 20, 2021 5:35 pm

Caduceus wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 6:19 am
It's clear that Sorc needs something.
How about a progressing damage nerf, topping at 20% at 100 dark magic? That seems to be really good decision and many people would agrre with me that this class dealing any damage is clearly overpovered.
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Naelar
Posts: 262

Re: Sorc lack of CC/HD

Post#7 » Sat Mar 20, 2021 5:54 pm

Shut up and reroll a melee class. (j/k)

I feel your pain. Our class mechanic and lack of utility/mobility was supposed to be a tradeoff for being the undisputed kings/queens of dps (which we haven't been for a while). Both sides have other classes that can dish comparable dps with more utility, more mobility, better armor and none of the drawbacks. Sorc/BW were not in a great place before this patch. I think TB is going to make it worse.

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Onigokko0101
Posts: 156

Re: Sorc lack of CC/HD

Post#8 » Sat Mar 20, 2021 7:26 pm

Shanell wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 5:35 pm
Caduceus wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 6:19 am
It's clear that Sorc needs something.
How about a progressing damage nerf, topping at 20% at 100 dark magic? That seems to be really good decision and many people would agrre with me that this class dealing any damage is clearly overpovered.
Eh I feel like its a bandaid at best, and can really end up doing more harm then good. % damage increases are very strong. This suggestion for example would give Sorc ST burst even more power, and tbh that is fine as is

Honestly them getting a similar skill to BW Funnel Power would go a long way.

Regardless of what it is though, it has to touch their AoE potential as their ST is already very strong.
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Caduceus
Posts: 235

Re: Sorc lack of CC/HD

Post#9 » Sat Mar 20, 2021 7:48 pm

Onigokko0101 wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 7:26 pm

Eh I feel like its a bandaid at best, and can really end up doing more harm then good. % damage increases are very strong. This suggestion for example would give Sorc ST burst even more power, and tbh that is fine as is

Honestly them getting a similar skill to BW Funnel Power would go a long way.

Regardless of what it is though, it has to touch their AoE potential as their ST is already very strong.

This is often repeated, but honestly I don't think Sorc ST is that strong, (nor is BW), at least not in relation to the glaring weaknesses Sorc has to deal with.

To name a few things:
- To get 12k+ numbers on target dummies, Sorc requires an elaborate 7-10 sec setup. That is incredibly restrictive. Disrupts, cleanses, interrupts, stuns, punts, LoS, instantly nullifies your fancy timestamp.
- Sorc burst is heavily telegraphed. Sure, 12k on a dummy looks great, but how much is left of that after guard, detaunt, challenges, bellows, etc.?
- Sorc is easily pressured into ineffectiveness.
- Sorc burst is just that: burst. It brings very little ST pressure beyond those bursts, whereas other classes have both burst and sustain, which is much harder to deal with for healers.

We've all had our fun timestamping unguarded rr40 players in RvR, but that is not enough to make the class/spec relevant.
Last edited by Caduceus on Sun Mar 21, 2021 1:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"I watched a snail crawl along the edge of a straight razor. That's my dream; that's my nightmare. Crawling, slithering, along the edge of a straight razor... and surviving." - Colonel Walter E. Kurtz

Sofong
Posts: 325

Re: Sorc lack of CC/HD

Post#10 » Sun Mar 21, 2021 12:58 pm

hand of ruin should have an insta snare effect like whithering heat.

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