Engineer's ability : bugman's best triple nerfed.

[leftayparxoun]

As it currently stands we can have 6 warrior priests all doing Marty's blessing or spamming divine strike, but for some reason Kegs doing it is considered OP?

Come on man.

From my previous comment:

Having 6 kegs in place for example would lead to ~1800 heal/3s. That is equivalent to another healer spamming their AOE cast heal for all affected people in the area. In comparison, WP's Martyr's Blessing heals for 300/s with a 23% uptime (3s/13s) vs Engi's 100/s with 88% uptime (15s/(15+2)s). Not to mention that WPs cannot do any other actions while they are channelling that ability.

And to elaborate on that example, even if each martyr's blessing averages at ~350 (due to heal crit), you'd have 6*350/1 = 2100 heal/s to those affected.
With a 23% uptime that is 480 heal/s to those affected on average.

Compared to that, a 6man of engis would result in ~1800/3 = 600 heal/s to those affected.
With an uptime of 88% that is 530 heal/s to those affected on average.

In fact, to reach the same over-time effectiveness with WPs you'd have to bring 7 WPs to assist a warband. And as stated before, outside of Martyr's Blessings the WPs will not be able to contribute as much in the fight as the Engis would.

[Ysaran]

Orvr probably wouldn't change much, but it would make a huge difference in keeps and forts. The reasoning is the same as why ranged AoE skills don't stack

[hogun]

As it currently stands we can have 6 warrior priests all doing Marty's blessing or spamming divine strike, but for some reason Kegs doing it is considered OP?

Come on man.

From my previous comment:

Having 6 kegs in place for example would lead to ~1800 heal/3s. That is equivalent to another healer spamming their AOE cast heal for all affected people in the area. In comparison, WP's Martyr's Blessing heals for 300/s with a 23% uptime (3s/13s) vs Engi's 100/s with 88% uptime (15s/(15+2)s). Not to mention that WPs cannot do any other actions while they are channelling that ability.

And to elaborate on that example, even if each martyr's blessing averages at ~350 (due to heal crit), you'd have 6*350/1 = 2100 heal/s to those affected.
With a 23% uptime that is 480 heal/s to those affected on average.

Compared to that, a 6man of engis would result in ~1800/3 = 600 heal/s to those affected.
With an uptime of 88% that is 530 heal/s to those affected on average.

In fact, to reach the same over-time effectiveness with WPs you'd have to bring 7 WPs to assist a warband. And as stated before, outside of Martyr's Blessings the WPs will not be able to contribute as much in the fight as the Engis would.

I don't really understand your analysis, but you seem to be saying that 6 WP will heal less than 6 engi?
Could you elaborate, from my point of view it seems difficult to understand.

[leftayparxoun]

I don't really understand your analysis, but you seem to be saying that 6 WP will heal less than 6 engi?
Could you elaborate, from my point of view it seems difficult to understand.

Certainly.
The above analysis examined the scenario of 6 Engies using Bugman's Best (theoretical version where it could heal out of party) vs 6 WPs using Martyr's Blessing in the middle of a 24man wb.

Both groups are only using those abilities off cooldown:
-Engies have 15 s duration, 15 cd and 2 sec cast on it. This leads to a 15 s duration of the skill every 17 s (15+2). Therefore the heal is active for 15/17 = 88.2% of the time.
-Warrior Priests have 3 s duration, 13 s cooldown and instant cast on it. This leads to a 3 s duration every 13 s. Therefore the heal is active for 3/13 = 23.1% of the time.

To get the average heal value over time of each party, we do the following calculation:
Heal,avg = Members of Party * (Heal instances*Heal Value/Duration of ability) * %of time the heal is active

Redid the calculations with even more accuracy and it turns out WP comes out slightly on top:
Assuming WP with 200 Heal Bonus (from Willpower and Healing Power) and 30% heal crit: Heal tick value = (246+200*0.167)(0.70*1+0.30*1.45) = 317,1

For Engi team we get: 6 * (6*300/15) * 0,882 ~= 530 heal/s on average
For WP team we get: 6 * (4*317,1/3) * 0.231 ~= 586 heal/s on average

So The equivalency should be 7 Engies for 6 WPs. Proof:
Engies: 7*530*17 = 63.070 heal output/s to the warband
WPs: 6*586*18 = 63.288 heal output/s to the warband

While the WPs can technically heal the warband with other means, doing so is quite inefficient; They must manually click a target in the warband and use single target Hot on them, click another target and repeat. To reach the above output, they also have to play as a normal healer, meaning that they cannot alternatively use their offensive kit efficiently in the Martyr's Blessing downtime.
Meanwhile, Engis can just build for offense and use the rest of their offensive kit to a satisfying degree to apply AOE or ST dmg pressure against whatever the wb they are supporting is facing.

And finally, although it's a minor detail, Engis need to spend 11.8% of their rotations to healing the wb (2 s cast/ 15+2 s) while WPs need to spend 23.1% (3 s channel/13 s) of the rotations for their Martyr's Blessings. This shows how little time commitment the Engies need to heal the warband compared to the WPs.

[hogun]

Certainly.

thank you.

the objective of your proposal by the calculation seems to mean that the engineer would heal too much. but the calculation can be presented in several ways.

i have an engi , it heals 5X 284 hp in 15s for 2s ( 9pt tinkerer) with the Keg
I have a WP which (with 212 bonus heal) heal 4 X 405hp for 3s with MB

or i say :
2s of cast for the engineer produces 1420 hp
3s of cast for the WP produces 1620 hp

or I say that
every 15s the engineer produces 1420 hp
every 13s the WP produces 1620 hp

or I say that
in 3s the engineer heals 284 hp
in 3s the WP heals 1620 hp

I would tend to say that in the end it's quite difficult to compare these two skill. but I think that MB is much better than the Keg to heal 24 target in fight.

[Kragg]

Reason why in was nerfed in RoR to party only is because it is very easily overstacked- 1 keg is a decent hot, however put 10 of them in same spot and they will heal for a lot more than an actual healers. Which was indeed done, and caused the nerf.

By one guild, no one else. It is ridicules that nerfs are being carried out because a niche warband does it

[Wdova]

What about cut the effectivenes of healing outside of party to 50% rather than cut it off completely? This reasoning about 10 engies placing heal keg in same spot to hea everyone around for 10 x 289 is ridicolous. Only scenario we can see so many engies in lakes is when Bitterstone roleplaying in RvR. These days 1 engi max in a warband is what we see today and its not because of keg, but the pull.
Cutting skill because of some hypothetical scenario is

[Zxul]

What about cut the effectivenes of healing outside of party to 50% rather than cut it off completely? This reasoning about 10 engies placing heal keg in same spot to hea everyone around for 10 x 289 is ridicolous. Only scenario we can see so many engies in lakes is when Bitterstone roleplaying in RvR. These days 1 engi max in a warband is what we see today and its not because of keg, but the pull.
Cutting skill because of some hypothetical scenario is

I don't remember where, but back when the keg was nerfed someone did it somewhere outside roleplaying. Possibly in funnel, in sc, or such.

[Ysaran]

Taking an Order fort would be impossible. The keg coupled with kotbs, WP and RP healing bonus would just be too much healing. If the AoE cap were 9 it wouldn't be a problem, but with the cap at 24...