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Mighty Soul Removed?!

Knight of the Blazing Sun, Bright Wizard, Witch Hunter, Warrior Priest

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Uchoo
Posts: 281

Re: Mighty Soul Removed?!

Post#211 » Sat Oct 31, 2020 7:07 pm

Conclusion:

We have proven that Knight and probably Chosen damage with their Channeled skill is probably too low, especially ignoring any abstract hypotheses about damage on Dummies since we know which tanks have armor debuffs and we also know that Knight is the only Tank which cannot debuff it's own damage type and it's also the only tank without a Crit Chance tactic. Knight/Chosen having slightly lower damage potential makes sense to me and is fine to me, however, I think we can all agree that Knight damage is currently unreasonably low after comparing all utility provided by their 2 Cross-Mirror tanks, the Chosen and the Blackguard. They are the "easy" tanks to play but there aren't any real conditions to using their utility, and Heaven's Fury/Quake do give them a bit of an edge on utility in some cases.

Our suggested fixes are this:

Myrmidia's Fury/Relentless: The abilities now do x% more damage per hit. Our suggestion is 10% more per hit (0/10/20/30/40/50). 150% * .83 = ~125% more damage on the ability. The last 2 hits together creating some ST burst potential that is notably stronger than a single Cleave/Ravage/Precision Strike. The ability can be counter-played through interrupting in a lot of different ways. This would make the channel comparable to other tank Channels, but would probably call for a slightly longer CD on the skill. Secrets had the idea of Crit Chance per hit instead, which could work but I like the flat damage myself.

Runefang: This tactic probably needs to make an appearance again. The Knight is the only tank class that lacks a crit chance tactic, and a source of avoidance for 2H play. I don't know if these are strictly necessary long term as Knight still do have access to Vigilance, which is comparable as far as survivability goes. 240 Weapon Skill should only result with in 2-5% parry chance against most melee anyways. What Knight will really need is either a good source of armor pen/weapon skill or make MF Elemental Damage.

Blazing Blade: The initial hit should be Ele as well as the DoT.

Staggering Impact: This skill needs to do more damage for a 13 point skill, and probably have a lower cooldown. No one uses this currently and it would be nice if it was a viable spec choice for Knights again.
"You're just mad because you're not on the list :^)" -RyanMakara

"They're gonna die if we kill them" - Klev on strategy

"(The strong aoe meta) decimated live population in its first year." - Llondo

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M0rw47h
Posts: 680

Re: Mighty Soul Removed?!

Post#212 » Sat Oct 31, 2020 10:55 pm

Relentless doesn't need a buff.

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Uchoo
Posts: 281

Re: Mighty Soul Removed?!

Post#213 » Sat Oct 31, 2020 11:11 pm

M0rw47h wrote:
Sat Oct 31, 2020 10:55 pm
Relentless doesn't need a buff.
Relentless non-crits a dummy for 500 with 1100 Str, FO and Bloodlord Weapon. It would hit for 700 and 750 on the final ticks. Relentless does have Spirit Damage already from the Tactic and Chosen as a whole certainly doesn't need the help like Knight does (strictly speaking about damage output); it just doesn't make sense to me to not have both channels do the same thing. Just my opinion; maybe only MF should get the change and it would be unique.
"You're just mad because you're not on the list :^)" -RyanMakara

"They're gonna die if we kill them" - Klev on strategy

"(The strong aoe meta) decimated live population in its first year." - Llondo

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detrap
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Re: Mighty Soul Removed?!

Post#214 » Sun Nov 01, 2020 1:35 am

Uchoo wrote:
Sat Oct 31, 2020 6:53 pm
detrap wrote:
Sat Oct 31, 2020 6:10 am
I main destro. Hastened Doom is up near 100% after 10 seconds into a fight. Knights DID NOT reach 100% parry with WS with the old formula. Str denied it completely so your WS on your character sheet contributing to parry basically meant nothing.

Resist debuff from Auras are only relevant for a Knight debuffing Ele for a BW/RP, in every single other case, there's a better debuff that does it.

Paypal me another 10.
With Hastened Doom, close to 100% uptime is after you have done aoe abilities and attacked each target individually? So after 10-20seconds you have the melee train debuffed? Knight can do it instantly.

I'm happy to link a knight with 100% parry on getstats. I think weapon skill contribution to parry was nerfed a while ago.

Do you mean fighting against classes with high strength negates your high parry? Tell that to SMs where having 100% parry is a fun build.

Knights resistance aura can buff the damage of:

SM
AM
ENG
BW
SW
WL
RP
WP
WH
KotBS

There are better debuffs, especially for race based classes, but nearly all can be defended against, require AP and don't have 100% uptime unlike the Knight and Chosen can do, and buff the party passively as well.
KotBS - WP T1 - Engie T1 - BW rr16

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Uchoo
Posts: 281

Re: Mighty Soul Removed?!

Post#215 » Sun Nov 01, 2020 1:54 am

detrap wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 1:35 am
SM's have 25% Parry from an Ability, 5% from a tactic, potentially another 10% from a tactic and 50% from a Channel. Stat contention Parry isn't part of any of that. Knights have nothing that gives flat Parry except for a tactic that requires a shield.

PayPal me another 10.
"You're just mad because you're not on the list :^)" -RyanMakara

"They're gonna die if we kill them" - Klev on strategy

"(The strong aoe meta) decimated live population in its first year." - Llondo

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detrap
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Re: Mighty Soul Removed?!

Post#216 » Sun Nov 01, 2020 2:28 am

Uchoo wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 1:54 am
detrap wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 1:35 am
SM's have 25% Parry from an Ability, 5% from a tactic, potentially another 10% from a tactic and 50% from a Channel. Stat contention Parry isn't part of any of that. Knights have nothing that gives flat Parry except for a tactic that requires a shield.

PayPal me another 10.
Knights have better mitigation tools, crowd control and can run a high toughness plus soft cap resistances build as a 2h. Knights can run over 40% parry which is enough for city sieges. Face tanking in ORvR is the only issue when not running Vigilance.
KotBS - WP T1 - Engie T1 - BW rr16

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detrap
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Re: Mighty Soul Removed?!

Post#217 » Sun Nov 01, 2020 3:48 am

Uchoo wrote:
Sat Oct 31, 2020 7:07 pm
Conclusion:
We have proven that Knight and probably Chosen damage with their Channeled skill is probably too low, especially ignoring any abstract hypotheses about damage on Dummies since we know which tanks have armor debuffs and we also know that Knight is the only Tank which cannot debuff it's own damage type and it's also the only tank without a Crit Chance tactic. Knight/Chosen having slightly lower damage potential makes sense to me and is fine to me, however, I think we can all agree that Knight damage is currently unreasonably low after comparing all utility provided by their 2 Cross-Mirror tanks, the Chosen and the Blackguard. They are the "easy" tanks to play but there aren't any real conditions to using their utility, and Heaven's Fury/Quake do give them a bit of an edge on utility in some cases.
I have proven a lot of this is wrong already:
  • They can obviously debuff their own damage types
  • They have a crit chance tactic, it just works as a debuff instead, a very long debuff.
  • Very wrong about utility (aoe mez/mega punt/aoe snare/4 consecutive interrupts)
  • All tanks are easy to play. All tanks are not easy to play well
Myrmidia's Fury/Relentless: The abilities now do x% more damage per hit. Our suggestion is 10% more per hit (0/10/20/30/40/50). 150% * .83 = ~125% more damage on the ability. The last 2 hits together creating some ST burst potential that is notably stronger than a single Cleave/Ravage/Precision Strike. The ability can be counter-played through interrupting in a lot of different ways. This would make the channel comparable to other tank Channels, but would probably call for a slightly longer CD on the skill. Secrets had the idea of Crit Chance per hit instead, which could work but I like the flat damage myself.
This I agree with this, or maybe make it all flat damage except the final hit where it will 'almost always crit' or 'almost ignore all armour'.
Runefang: This tactic probably needs to make an appearance again. The Knight is the only tank class that lacks a crit chance tactic, and a source of avoidance for 2H play. I don't know if these are strictly necessary long term as Knight still do have access to Vigilance, which is comparable as far as survivability goes. 240 Weapon Skill should only result with in 2-5% parry chance against most melee anyways. What Knight will really need is either a good source of armor pen/weapon skill or make MF Elemental Damage.
They could leave Runefang as is but add willpower to the range of buffs for the dodge and disrupt increase, or swap the stat buff out for a flat ranged defensive increase and make it proc off any successful defense and/or guard damage. Knights can already get 800 weapon skill. The issue is there is no damage multiplier tactics for the damage we do apart from FO. But I've explained that it's within good reason.
Blazing Blade: The initial hit should be Ele as well as the DoT.
Would like to see all damage in the Glory tree do elemental damage apart from the M4 morale drain. Similar to how the MS tactic was in the very beginning of the original game.
Staggering Impact: This skill needs to do more damage for a 13 point skill, and probably have a lower cooldown. No one uses this currently and it would be nice if it was a viable spec choice for Knights again.
Staggering Impact is already very useful, base damage could be increased, but the debuff is already very strong, cooldown is fine because its short enough to plan with bombing groups. It's good right now especially when also buffing the strength of mdps in the party and for BW against dps and 2h tanks that don't have much disrupt. If I don't use Staggering Impact its because I'm using Vigilance (which is useless with good positioning in cities) or I'm tri-spec for the knockdown/heals/snare.

Would be nice to see Biting Blade proc'ing off critical hits from dots to boost our defensive debuffs.

Never used MS, never needed it when I want to top damage for tanks in cities. Stopped using Heaven's Fury weeks ago because it's best used for delaying groups, not killing targets.

EDIT: Correction. Did use MS but stopped for the same amount of time of using HW which is past few weeks.
Last edited by detrap on Sun Nov 01, 2020 11:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
KotBS - WP T1 - Engie T1 - BW rr16

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Uchoo
Posts: 281

Re: Mighty Soul Removed?!

Post#218 » Sun Nov 01, 2020 5:44 pm

detrap wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 3:48 am
Just stop lol. EVERYTHING you say is wrong. The only thing you have proven wrong is yourself. Everything you post is anecdotal, a logical fallacy or a flat-out lie. Btw, you realize that admitting that you never used MS even further destroys the credibility which you never had, right? You're just a troll.

Anyway, I was hoping to get more feedback from the community but seeing as it's just Detrap left in here, time to talk to staff.
"You're just mad because you're not on the list :^)" -RyanMakara

"They're gonna die if we kill them" - Klev on strategy

"(The strong aoe meta) decimated live population in its first year." - Llondo

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detrap
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Re: Mighty Soul Removed?!

Post#219 » Sun Nov 01, 2020 9:58 pm

Uchoo wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 5:44 pm
detrap wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 3:48 am
Just stop lol. EVERYTHING you say is wrong. The only thing you have proven wrong is yourself. Everything you post is anecdotal, a logical fallacy or a flat-out lie. Btw, you realize that admitting that you never used MS even further destroys the credibility which you never had, right? You're just a troll.

Anyway, I was hoping to get more feedback from the community but seeing as it's just Detrap left in here, time to talk to staff.
If it makes things easier for you, for the record I meant to say never used in the past few weeks alongside Heaven's Fury*

Tried and tested both and it's not helping a good warband running those over something more useful for the current meta builds.

Please use words you understand, because the word anecdotal is not one of them. And yes I've given enough information already as a sufficient counter argument to your personal claims of the situation of the class.

Maybe main a knight instead of Destro classes and it might open your perception of what it can and can't do.
KotBS - WP T1 - Engie T1 - BW rr16

Atrosity
Posts: 4

Re: Mighty Soul Removed?!

Post#220 » Mon Nov 02, 2020 12:18 am

detrap wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 9:58 pm
Uchoo wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 5:44 pm
detrap wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 3:48 am
Just stop lol. EVERYTHING you say is wrong. The only thing you have proven wrong is yourself. Everything you post is anecdotal, a logical fallacy or a flat-out lie. Btw, you realize that admitting that you never used MS even further destroys the credibility which you never had, right? You're just a troll.

Anyway, I was hoping to get more feedback from the community but seeing as it's just Detrap left in here, time to talk to staff.
If it makes things easier for you, for the record I meant to say never used in the past few weeks alongside Heaven's Fury*

Tried and tested both and it's not helping a good warband running those over something more useful.

Please use words you understand, because the word anecdotal is not one of them. And yes I've given enough information already as a sufficient counter argument to your personal claims of the situation of the class.

Maybe main a knight instead of Destro classes and it might open your perception of what it can and can't do.
You only ever talk about all the abilities a class might have. Who runs M1 bubble or M2 EC outside of solo roaming? Being a STR stacking MS build knight used to provide an adequate amount of damage to even out the playing field in disparity of damage between tanks. The 15% extra damage you take was negated by the fact that you will be running FM for the majority of the time. Let alone the fact that you actually needed to slave away to get high enough gear to utilize MS in the first place.

We are not talking about being a stat ***** with EC which only lasts 15 seconds. If you pop EC and then get punted away, what benefit have you provided to anyone? None. Stacking WS does not create some godtier DPS boost to the knight since MF is a mess right now and PS already ignores 25% of a target's armor.

Also, GYR only buffs the dot on BB and the pitiful damage HF gives. We don't have any other meaningful way to boost our damage outside of M1 Demo....

Biting blade is easily replaced by slice through. Most 2H knights, I'd argue, will be running FM, BD, and OS. So with your one variable tactic you are going to run BB? Slice through will provide far greater utility to your team surviving and or catching targets.

The knight does dumpster damage compared to all other tanks. The utility the knight provides does not make up for the lack of damage. There is hardly any unique utility a knight provides to a group that other tanks do not. It's an easy formula to write out.

X = damage
Y = Utility
Z = Usefulness

X + Y = Z

If X is ****, does Y provide enough to offset and make sure our Z is on par with other tanks? That is what this thread is about. With MS you were able to make up the lack of damage to be a tank that did adequate damage with utility that isn't far superior to that of other tanks.

If you claim a knight's damage is fine. You're wrong. Even in BiS DPS gear the knight's damage is well below that of all the other tanks in their BiS DPS setup.

Also, who interrupts a healer 4 times in a row? You can taunt, knockdown, then vicious slash when they get up. If you're punting them towards the group then you are doing a knockdown + punt play, where they are punted during the knockdown. Who cares about this magical 4 interrupt capability? It's a complete non-issue.

My suggested changes to the knight start with:

1. Original Runefang back as a baseline tactic
2. MS as a speccable tactic in the glory tree (can even put it where Runefang currently is)
3. Base damage on MF goes up slightly, then the channel can either increase in damage per hit or increase chance to crit per hit. A well placed interrupt provides outplay for the enemy team.
4. SI should do more damage for a 13 point ability.

If the knight were to run both MS and RF then they are giving up their utility tactics in order to be more damage focused. So the Y variable of the equation is going down to offset the X going up. That is a compromise that the individual player must make for the sake of their play style or what the group needs.

If this suddenly provides too high of a DPS ceiling then the devs can look at reducing the tactics as they see fit.

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