Just roll White lion Why bother (DPS)

[Khailee]

I dont think people understand what i was saying WL dont have any choice to be stronger because it's the only good choice for melee order
Wl S tier
Rest of the melee b-c tier
While destro got that S, A tier
Choopa (best melee dps with just spaming 3 abilities) with marauder (armor debuff) and melee squig, BO with with auto attack haste buff which is way stronger than the rest of order good mobility and super high dmg.
Slayer is trash compare to choopa now mobility especialy with dok giving -20% speed covenant. You just gonna keep running man and they gonna control the fight.

Yeah this is what I used to complain about with Slayer too before WL became the new order god.

It's not that the slayer needed to be nerfed as hard as it did. It's that it was the only viable order class in organized and it was both boring to play for (unless u only love playing 1 class I guess) and also boring to play against just the same thing time and time again.

They finally nerfed the Slayer a little after like 15 years but the problem didn't go away, they just swapped it the WL which may be even more boring to play against since at least there was some interesting ways you could counter slayers... WL is just the same thing over and over and the only real thing you can do as a counter is interupt the spin.

I am a WL player myself... well I don't actively play the game at the moment but when I return I will be playing the Lion again surely as I find it very enjoyable to play between managing a pet and having so much mobility. But it's just a very stale meta in the organized play.

A fun meta is one where you constantly see different lineups of classes having at least a somewhat competitive chance. Even destro doesn't really have this going for them....lots of unused classes and builds to this day. But on order its a whole different level of stale.

[Sinisterror]

Slayer Old problem was Rampage ignoring guard mechanic and the 24 ae cap. If they changed ae cap to 9 and Guard Mechanic to Aor version ie NO unblockable guard dmg from anything except morales max, Rampage could have stayed exactly as it was. Also 5s Cooldown ID meant just slotting short temper slayer could Spam ID without the need for CD reducer from SM.

Imo make ID cooldown 10s, Short temper reduces cooldown to 5s AND Whispering Winds Reduces cooldown to 0s. This is how things should work, they build on top of eachother not cancel eachother out. When you do this you can make Wl Aoe 180 degrees again instead of 360.

This obviously would mean that Choppa 20s cooldown to furious stomping that lasts 6s. Red goes faster would decrease it to 15s. CD reducer would reduce it to 10s.

And remove the unholy Opness of BG, Give CD reduction back to choppa OR Black orc Without needing tactic because BG doesnt need tactic why should BO need tactic? BG is already stronger in everything except single target dmg. Reminder that BG is only tank that doesnt need tactic to halve Punts cooldown, just need to slot 2h and cooldown halves automatically.

Also this would mean that Sorceress Neverending Agony would reduce Infernal wave Cd to 5s and Blorc using Cd reducer would mean 0s cooldown. Just Make new Lenghtening shadows tactic so sorc cannot nuke everyone from 100ft away, 65ft is fine with 0s cooldown.

These are all needed changes it is obvious when you remove skills working together and actually make them almost work against eachother and when these things have been there for 13-15yrs and everyone is fine with it except when they are not and cannot figure out any counters and this happens...

This has happened so many times that you literally have to revert so much of the changes so that this Version of Warhammer online would make sense to everyone, not just very small amount of people. I also think we should return to True Timestamping. Meaning whatever Stats/resis/armour/buffs/debuffs you had at that moment when lets say Sorc uses Chillwind with Resis debuff and Wop after that is it. If buffin 200 toughness or 1k armour comes after WH using flanking + Bal it wouldnt effect the dmg and WH will get flanking 15% dmg effect even if he is dead because at that moment when he casted Bal, he was behind you and you had not 200 toughness buff or 1k armour buff before applying Bal they will not help.

This would help with performance as well because there is no constant checking there is the timestamp, and that makes it much more meaningful because you can actually plan something when it works like this. This is Action+Preventive+Reactive all at the same time, now its just reactive.

[CountTalabecland]

I dont think people understand what i was saying WL dont have any choice to be stronger because it's the only good choice for melee order
Wl S tier
Rest of the melee b-c tier
While destro got that S, A tier
Choopa (best melee dps with just spaming 3 abilities) with marauder (armor debuff) and melee squig, BO with with auto attack haste buff which is way stronger than the rest of order good mobility and super high dmg.
Slayer is trash compare to choopa now mobility especialy with dok giving -20% speed covenant. You just gonna keep running man and they gonna control the fight.

Yeah this is what I used to complain about with Slayer too before WL became the new order god.

It's not that the slayer needed to be nerfed as hard as it did. It's that it was the only viable order class in organized and it was both boring to play for (unless u only love playing 1 class I guess) and also boring to play against just the same thing time and time again.

They finally nerfed the Slayer a little after like 15 years but the problem didn't go away, they just swapped it the WL which may be even more boring to play against since at least there was some interesting ways you could counter slayers... WL is just the same thing over and over and the only real thing you can do as a counter is interupt the spin.

I am a WL player myself... well I don't actively play the game at the moment but when I return I will be playing the Lion again surely as I find it very enjoyable to play between managing a pet and having so much mobility. But it's just a very stale meta in the organized play.

A fun meta is one where you constantly see different lineups of classes having at least a somewhat competitive chance. Even destro doesn't really have this going for them....lots of unused classes and builds to this day. But on order its a whole different level of stale.

I think what should be apparent after all these years is that these devs are hopeless at balancing. All they do is make one class overpowered, eventually there is enough outcry on forums, nerf it to oblivion, and then create some new OP monstrosity out of a different class. It would be nice to have more than competitive class per archetype, especially in MDPS on Order.

[nat3s]

WL deserves to be op as it was op on live + it helps balance the pop between order and destro + maintain control over dps shamans.

Just roll 1 if you're getting stomped by them!

[Kylashandra]

And remove the unholy Opness of BG, Give CD reduction back to choppa OR Black orc Without needing tactic because BG doesnt need tactic why should BO need tactic? BG is already stronger in everything except single target dmg. Reminder that BG is only tank that doesnt need tactic to halve Punts cooldown, just need to slot 2h and cooldown halves automatically.

Are you being serious or just trolling ?

The improved punt was originally THE class exclusivity of BG, then it was decided that every tank should have the same tools, which in return brought a real mess of CC immunities, over abundance of ready to use KDs (which should all be conditionals like it used to be) and overall a diminished experience in term of group synergies (but it's not the topic right now).

It always amazes me when people say that BG has the best punt in the game ... Currently it's probably the worst because unlike those like Chosen who can just slot a tactic to have an anytime super punt, BG has to reach 100% Hate to have a slightly better one(debatable, the Chosen super punt being a slow curved ball, with alot of time travel, compared to the BG one which throws further but almost in a fast straight line).

You never start a fight with full Hate, and compared to what it used to be prior to the tank patch, it takes way longer to build it up as well. Which means while the tanks class who have access to the tactic and can punt upon engaging fight, you have to wait at least 5 to 10 seconds to be able to do the same. Talk about an advantage.

You also say that BG is stronger in everything except single target damage, but you surely realize that BG is no longer able to spam AoE either, because of how Hate works nowadays, BO is currently the only destro class being able to spam AoE.

BG is probably the weakest tank in game right now, he's been nerfed over and over defensively and his class ressource mechanic is a shade of what it used to be. His buffs are mostly worthless to its Dark protector target compared to what its mirror, IB, can bring to his oath friend (crit %, steady AP regen, parry, WS,... whereas BG only has STR / Tough / (which won't stack with other buffs/pots of the same type nowadays, useful on live, not so much nowadays) / WIS (which is mostly the only useful one and IB also has) / a small % inc crit reduc and the meme elite training.

Nowadays, the only reason why you would need a BG in a warband is the For The Witch King buff (same curse for the SM), which was added instead of their Regen skill (which was supposed to come back later on and never did btw). You could also want ONE 2H BG for the sake of the AoE crit buff/WND debuff, but that's it.

So yeah, let's nerf BG anyway, it's pretty much a husk of a corpse compared to its live version.

[Sinisterror]

: D Haha i pointed out that bg is ONLY tank that doesnt need tactic to halve punt cooldown. They also get insane 45% Toughness buff which means you soft cap it every build. They get 10% AOE Parry/Block debuff. Bg gets 20% Critical rate debuff. BG gets core Absorb which none other tank gets as core skill.

Bg gets 120str/480 willpower buff as does IB. Bg gets 2h KD while having 5s KD on shield as a core skill. I never said to nerf BG i said to buff Blorc. Remind me what does blorc has/offer vs BG? And Bg does not have any hate building issues AT ALL. Says alot that you care ONLY about spamming Aoe : D

I mean BG doesnt need to use tactic to get hate on hitting enemy, IB needs tactic for that. Return the heal skill for both ib/bg but BG is not the class that should have grp reduction on top of everyhthing they get and offer

Delusional.

[Farrul]

I mean the counter to WL isn't ranged cos that is what WL is good at.

A mara will outbrawl a WL in melee.

I wish players would educate themselves before they talk about this subject, in terms of 1vs1 WL is nothing special. The best solo roam classes are destros + AM.

A bit old but still a lot of this applies.

Warhammer Online RoR Solo Class Tier List:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_Ar3TLenjk

In that video Rebiff says that WL can be S tier, but everyone plays it bad...

In theory a well played WL with a balanced build would score on par with SM for solo due to its speed and cc and end up in A tier. Last one i saw playing like that was MDPV.

But that is not the WL people are complaining about here, it is the glass cannon WL full crit. Losing to that 1vs1 is a l2p issue or one is playing a squishy glass dps. As you can see he places that kind of WL in the low bracket for solo since WL vs a prepared 1vs1 toon will suffer( i think that was a bit unfair, it belongs a tier above in the middle).

S Tier is currently Magus/AM imho followed by shaman def we. That means the best classes for solo roam are 3 destro and 1 order. Hence WL is nothing special.

So the issue with WL is really a bit overtuned AOE dps(only in comparison, since stuff has been nerfed) and probably pet speed in small scale because of the pull.

[vanbuinen77]

The amount of bias is astounding.

[Avernus]

meme elite training.

The ability to share your elite training using your dark protector is actually really good, it's not a meme thing at all. You can use it to protect your buddy from some strong hits or punt+burst BW combo. The only thing - you are supposed to read the situation well and be fast with your skills.

[Kylashandra]

: D Haha i pointed out that bg is ONLY tank that doesnt need tactic to halve punt cooldown. They also get insane 45% Toughness buff which means you soft cap it every build. They get 10% AOE Parry/Block debuff. Bg gets 20% Critical rate debuff. BG gets core Absorb which none other tank gets as core skill.

Bg gets 120str/480 willpower buff as does IB. Bg gets 2h KD while having 5s KD on shield as a core skill. I never said to nerf BG i said to buff Blorc. Remind me what does blorc has/offer vs BG? And Bg does not have any hate building issues AT ALL. Says alot that you care ONLY about spamming Aoe : D

I mean BG doesnt need to use tactic to get hate on hitting enemy, IB needs tactic for that. Return the heal skill for both ib/bg but BG is not the class that should have grp reduction on top of everyhthing they get and offer

Delusional.

I get that either you didnt play BG recently, either you havent played it as it was before tank patch. Hate is a real struggle nowadays, and no I have never been a 2H AoE spammer. Basically all your tankiness comes from your Hate (parry / Block / Tough buff you pointed out) whereas other tanks have fix defence bonus tactics / skills, most of your debuff skills cost huge amount of Hate ( the AoE parry/block for instance). Basically BG is good IF you can keep your Hate around 100% all the time, which never happens if you are actually pushing buttons.

Incidentally I spoke with the creator of the Warband ready guide recently who thinks exactly the same about the Punt and decline of the BG.
BG is good on paper at 100% Hate, but behind most tank who have fix values on their tanking stats because you can't maintain that (unless you're an AFK guard bot) and you have to engage fights with no bonus at all from your tactics.

FYI I play all 6 tanks in game, and happen to have played BOrc quite alot recently, its usefullness in groups / warbands is above BG (party movespeed + cc immunity, party buffs with warcries, small heal sustain, better tankiness overall, party AP regen ...). BG can only be considered slightly better in small scale settings paired with a good mDpS, but still far behind what an IB could bring to the same duo.

(And btw I don't feel the need like you to spice my post with some small inserts screaming " sense of superiority ")