Destro Troll Comps.. err premades getting old?

[Luth]

Spoiler:

Because every healer can cleanse 8 classes, except the WP who can only cleanse 7 while the RP can cleanse 9.

Edit: With changing the SW debuffs you would create part of the "cleansing disparity" on the destruction side. That would be a nerf to the dok cleanse and a buff to the zealot.
But the dok cleanse is OP because of the group cleanse tactic, not because which classes he can cleanse imo.

The Dok's cleanse tacitc does the same thing as the WPs cleanse tactic, the value of the cleanse differs in it's power. Not all debuffs are as important to cleanse. This is apparent with Heal Debuffs/CD increasers/ huge Bomb Dots.

The zealot gets fairly short stick when it comes to cleansing compared to the WP and honestly I don't mind Zealots and RPs cleansing more than a WP/DoK due to the fact that their cleanse is single target. Shamans and AMs also get the short end because of inability to cleanse WoPs/BB.

Considering the strength of what a Dok can already cleanse, coupled with thier M2 means they are a no brainer choice for 1 if not both heal slots. I am also of the belief that the SH/SW heal debuff is too good as a spamable, but that is for another time methinks. In conclusion, I think moving SW to curses is a needed change compared to buffing WPs who have more heal potential due to tactics and synergies with knights.

The zealot has actually an advantage in cleansing one specific class, but it's not that big:
The dok can't cleanse the IB (50% outgoing HD), while the zealot can cleanse it.
The WP can cleanse the BG, while the RP can't cleanse it.

Besides that:
if one healer can mostly cleanse underperforming classes maybe it would be better to fix those classes to be competitive in the debuff department/transfer important debuffs on other classes of the same archetype.
On the other side:
if one healer can't cleanse a very important debuff type because class X has OP-debuff Y, maybe this class should be fixed instead of changing anything with cleansing/debuff types.

If we start to give healer A the possibility to cleanse 10 (underpowered) classes while healer B can cleanse 6 (overpowered) classes, new problems will arise when those underpowered classes maybe get buffed in the future.
The "mythic-bandaid-fix-style" will only lead to new problems.

[Gobtar]

That is true, yet while there is an inabability to cleanse some classes over others then some healers will always be less powerful that others due to the very nature of some debuffs. Perfect example is BB and Shamans.

[Luth]

While that is true, while there is an inabability to cleanse some classes over others then some healers will always be less powerful that others due to the very nature of some debuffs. Perfect example is BB and Shamans.

True. But as i wrote, if it is the consensus that it is absolutely mandatory that certain debuffs of some classes need to be cleansed or else you lost the fight before it begun, those classes or abilities need to be fixed.

I think also that in a proper balanced game it would be a disadvantage to take 2x the same class for your group.
Atm you don't get any disadvantage for taking certain classes two times, instead you get often an advantage (which is another clear sign for imbalance).

[Gobtar]

With this I am in agreement, I see that it's much easier to treat the symptoms than the cause, I am so used to offering up band-aid fixes just because real change rarely goes over well.

[Jaycub]

The matchmaker cannot and never will, be able to take players into account and as such will rarely be completely balanced. Just got to deal with it.

MMR when :^)

Spoiler:

I can't imagine how impossible/terrible it would be in a game like this when it barely works in a super straight forward game like CSGO, let alone MOBAS lol

[Luth]

My posts were offtopic and about general balancing, not the matchmaker or scenarios/whatever, because the discussion swapped somehow to cleansing

[Gobtar]

My posts were offtopic and about general balancing, not the matchmaker or scenarios/whatever, because the discussion swapped somehow to cleansing

Our posts were talking about cleansing, how they relate to comps and thus premades...It might have been a tangent but by no means unrelated.

[Tiggo]

a 1 class group will NOT be superior to a well composite group NEVER.

Its just the surprise that lets such a group win some sc.

[Landaren]

I dunno Tiggo, our Size Matters 4 BW WP/RP burn down the world squad made a lot of destro reroll / rage quit

[Annaise16]

The real winner versus WPs are WEs who have a double heal debuff that cannot be tagged by the cleanse and anyone they are on.

[/quote]


Yep. With my WE in worn sov, I could kill sov and doom WP who knew what they were doing. It took both heal debuffs to do it, though. Tried to win with just the incoming heal-debuff and using the AP kiss, but it wasn't quite enough.

In contrast, if my worn sov dok survived the initial (3-second) kd, it could hold out indefinitely against a warpforged WH. And that was against WHs running PTF/EW.