[Discussion/Feedback] The Armor Project

[roadkillrobin]

I don't think armor is that overperforming on RoR tbh and that makes weaponskill worse. The math crunch behind WS is actually pretty much on pair with every other stat, asuming you havn't hit that stat softcaps. A 120 boost increase the main function of the stat by around 10%. When acounted for with armor pen of around 40-45%, 900 Armor reduce physical dmg by 10% aswell. 5 talismans will generate 120 in one stat or 900 Armor. Armor also have no secondary effect while WS gives Parry. It seems pretty ballanced to me.

[freshour]

I'm just saying it is the most beneficial talisman slot of any tali for defense as far as what you get for one talisman slot. By a LONG shot.

[footpatrol2]

It is highly dependant on your group composition and what your trying to do.

[th3gatekeeper]

I don't think armor is that overperforming on RoR tbh and that makes weaponskill worse. The math crunch behind WS is actually pretty much on pair with every other stat, assuming you havn't hit that stat softcaps. A 120 boost increase the main function of the stat by around 10%. When acounted for with armor pen of around 40-45%, 900 Armor reduce physical dmg by 10% aswell. 5 talismans will generate 120 in one stat or 900 Armor. Armor also have no secondary effect while WS gives Parry. It seems pretty ballanced to me.

I think there is some equivocation going on here.

10% increase is NOT the same as 10% decrease.

Ill try and keep it super simple.

Lets say your at 60% physical mitigation via armor. This means your net effectiveness is 40%.

A 10% DECREASE (stacking armor) will actually reduce your "effectiveness" down from 40% to 30%. This is a 25% DECREASE in damage ( (40-30) / 40) ) = 25%.

The other thing is... gaining 10% "effectiveness" DOESNT undo this.

So say that 1 person does gain 10% more armor pen and the other does gain 10% physical damage reduction.

Going from 60-70%, we just did the short math... however gaining 10% more "armor pen" only means you cut through 7% of that added tankiness... its not a 1:1 "counter" thats the problem with armor pen.

Also the fact that weaponskill gives parry is kinda moot. Its my understanding that when you cap strength (or have tons of it) you are completely bypassing any parry from WS that person might have. In all honesty... you might as well remove WS giving parry as its kinda a moot point most of the time.


Im not sure how anyone can really say armor isnt overperforming. You legit can completely negate that type of damage SOO much... There is a reason this was going on in LIVE and people were uber stacking armor pots/talis and its happening here on ROR and its also why they made armor sets that bypassed armor - because that was their solution (though a bad one).

People claim "well its not OP because it only mitigates 1 type of damage" well so what? Weapon Skill should be buffed and in that same rational "wouldnt be OP because it only benefits 1 type of damage"....

There is a reason everyone says non phys damage is superior... because resists cap at 40%... There is a reason TONS of people roll around in armor talis. The only people who dont, run wounds because of the morale issues atm. Which if those were fixed so that it DIDNT bypass all your defensive stats, youd see everyone and their mother running armor talis...

So you can either nerf armor (which nobody likes that idea) OR... just buff its counter stat a little - by making it "additive" rather than multiplicative... this would solve TONS of problems frankly. Squishier classes wouldnt really benefit from armor anymore and would likely swap to Wounds. Tankier clases would still get the same benefits and therefore possible still use armor.

[roadkillrobin]

This aint live.
There are no Trivial Blows, Medium armor isn't 120% armor mitgigration and there are no defensive procs that heals you for 1500. That was the problem on live. Add Armor talismans on top of that. Yes it's a problem. a 1500 armor debuff on RoR increase dmg by like 30% on AoR it made sure you didn't hit armor cap all the time. For WS to be good, armor needs to be better. And I've done the math over and over on this. Against targeets with 90% or more armor mitigration WS becomes significally stronger then STR, against 60+ it's still better then STR, against 60% and less it's weaker then STR.

[th3gatekeeper]

This aint live.
There are no Trivial Blows, Medium armor isn't 120% armor mitgigration and there are no defensive procs that heals you for 1500. That was the problem on live. Add Armor talismans on top of that. Yes it's a problem. a 1500 armor debuff on RoR increase dmg by like 30% on AoR it made sure you didn't hit armor cap all the time. For WS to be good, armor needs to be better. And I've done the math over and over on this. Against targeets with 90% or more armor mitigration WS becomes significally stronger then STR, against 60+ it's still better then STR, against 60% and less it's weaker then STR.

Here is the problem with the math. On any target with over 90% mitigation, it doesnt matter if its better than STR because you aint killing that target.

ive done the math too. Yes the relative "increase" over str is bigger. But when that WS is boosting your say 50 hit to a 100 hit (100% increase woohoo!) And STR only boosts it up to like 75 (50% increase woohoo) it doesnt matter cause the end of the day your hitting for 100.

Thats the fallacy with this "comparison" thing. Your comparing essentially "unkillable targets" to "killable targets".

As I said in the OP.

"Me increasing my armor from 3000 to 4200 nearly cut his damage IN HALF... For 1200 armor... Thats 8 Armor Talis... The equiv of what.... 160 toughness or 160 strength or 160 weapon skill? "

Well how much "damage bonus" will 160 WS give you? It wont even come CLOSE to "mitigating" the benefit armor just gave that player.

STR - buffs ALL damage regardless of armor.
WS - ONLY buffs phys damage
Armor - ONLY mitigates Phys damage.

WS and Armor should be the stat and "counter stat" that you can specialize in to counter a stat.

You want overall higher damage for ALL damage types against ALL classes? Use Strength.
YOu want to specialize in taking down high armor targets? Use WS.

Right now the problem is, WS DOESNT counter high armor targets... Not as well as armor talis "counter" weapon skill. Its a 1 way street my friend.

I can put 160 more toughness in my gear and it (ROUGHLY) mitigates 160 strength in my gear. I can opt for 160 wounds which is flat HP OR.... I put in 1200 armor that cuts all Physical damage in HALF and has no counter...

Think about that. Those armor talis are DOUBLING your effective HP. The return against that damage source is too high, it basically moots out physical damage as being a threat....

[roadkillrobin]

Dude you don't wanna play this game were WS have the same pen as armor gained for the same amount of resources. The TTK is extremly low allready and if it weren't for them insiting the game being ballanced for 6v6 i would have sugesred a 50-60% Wounds increase for everyone a long time agp.

[Tesq]

Dude you don't wanna play this game were WS have the same pen as armor gained for the same amount of resources. The TTK is extremly low allready and if it weren't for them insiting the game being ballanced for 6v6 i would have sugesred a 50-60% Wounds increase for everyone a long time agp.

pretty much better a dmg and heal nerf and m2-3 nerf.

[th3gatekeeper]

Dude you don't wanna play this game were WS have the same pen as armor gained for the same amount of resources. The TTK is extremly low allready and if it weren't for them insiting the game being ballanced for 6v6 i would have sugesred a 50-60% Wounds increase for everyone a long time agp.

Im not saying this. What I AM saying though is that low armor classes have no business stacking armor talis and the gain you get from armor talis and pots are too much. You can have a light armor wearer achieve "tank" armor status via stacking armor...

What I AM suggesting is that you allow phys damage classes to have a "counter stat" that can be stacked - to counter Armor.

I believe what I have suggested is MORE than fair.... Making WS additive. You will STILL out "gain" defensive stats via armor stacking, however lower armor classes will frankly get MORE benefit out of things like wounds.

if you asked me, I WOULD be in favor of a wounds increase. Ive said that many places. frankly. The EASIEST way to do this is to make "Field of Glory" provide a wounds buff- thats all RVR.

So SCs stay the same, RVR TTK increases.

here is my beef. Armor is a "clutch" that is preventing true "balance" in this game. They cant start buffing wounds and toughness and all these other stats while KEEPING armor in its current form. I also have a beef that non Phys damage is SOOO superior to Phys damage. Even with armor debuffs and high WS, classes that deal non phys damage > phys damage. The reason? low resist cap + armor stacking.

Phys damage classes just get the shaft.

Id be perfectly fine if wounds gave more HP. Id LOVE it frankly.

[Darosh]

To get a good balance between the stats you'd have to work on the accessibility of the stats in question, across the board.
There is currently just a handful of classes that can benefit from WS without majorly gimping their mainstat (among other aspects).
Abbd.: The risk/reward and overall workings of WS are alright, you'd need a proper 6man to utilize proper WS stacking afterall - you will be incredibly squishy and bursty. And as to the parry aspect of it that is getting discarded ever so often: you'd have an edge against tanks, screwing with their CC alot.

E: As to the idea of additive handling and such: don't. Mythic had a hardon for additive mechanics and had to revert most of them for good reason (some of the more vicious ones are still around,tho) - mulitplicative handling prevents extremes, regardless of the individual case.