Should 6man vs 6man matter in balance discussions?

[scatterthewinds]

BTW I'm not even going touch the "more than 1 AM/IB is undesirable at WB level play".

[roadkillrobin]

The game is already balanced at warband level. Name me a class that doesn't have a role?

WH, WE, WL have about 0 use in Warbands.

Then we got classes that just gets outshined by other ones and arn't very desireble outside of maybe 1 such as SW, Magus, Engie, Black Guard, Iron Breakers, Archmage, Shaman.

That is a 100% L2P issue. Send 2 WH stealth into backlines and AOE self punt + other cc + healdebuff on their healers. Its an extremely effective way of mitigating heals are the critical push moments.

If we pretend for a second that WE/WH would have easy acess to the enemie backline in pretty much every engagement in ORVR. For WE/WH to be effective in the backline in RVR you would need to take out about 4 healers every 3 seconds. For that you would need about 8-10 of those classes. Thats more then you have dps spots for in a warband.

If the outgoin healdebuff build actually would work,(Kisses/Bullets can only proc on main target) you could get away with two of these classes to maintain Kiss/Bullet procs on the healers.

Now, the reallity is that in moast engagement the rear flank is actually protected by terrain so getting in there without brute force is almoast impossible. And in case the flank is open you be better of by pushing all dps in there, hence filling dps slots with those classes are wasted coz there are better AoE dps. They don't serve any purpose in warbands at all. Even all dps tanks and healers can outperform WE/WH at the dps spots.

They need some serius Mastery redesigns.

[Lileldys]

If the outgoin healdebuff build actually would work,(Kisses/Bullets can only proc on main target) you could get away with two of these classes to maintain Kiss/Bullet procs on the healers.

Last time I checked, Dragongun procs on everyone it hits, same for On Your Knees, has a 25% chance to proc your kisses.

[scatterthewinds]

So to you, single target burst damage has no purpose in a warband?

[Aurandilaz]

So to you, single target burst damage has no purpose in a warband?

ding ding we have a winner

sure, you might do ST burst on someone and maybe take them down in 4-8 seconds with burst of 500-2000 damage per second (1 target).
meanwhile the actually useful WB classes are spreading around AoE dmg pressure/burst, meaning 1000-3000 (6-9 targets) dmg per second around the bombing area, combined with various AoE debuffs and countered by various AoE buffs. There is a reason why even some pug leaders prefer to kick WH/WEs from warband, it's pretty much waste of space combined to all the possible alternative choices that could be filling said warband spot. (obviously if you have room might as well keep them because otherwise bugged unitframes from less than a full party and that makes gameplay harder for healers and tanks who cannot see Healthbars of allies)

[scatterthewinds]

That's a subjective opinion. If you look at total damage output as a cumulative number than AOE damage is obviously higher, but its also equally mitigated by AOE heals. However... if enemy healers are AOE healing, they're not really single target healing. And as we know, damage that doesn't actually result in kills is moot. There is no better method of actually securing kills than with single target damage, it is for this reason all 6 mans spec single target as oppose to aoe. Now whether your standard WB level WH/WE is good enough at their class to hit high single target numbers on suitable targets is a different story entirely, but as someone said above, you balance based on class potential, not average skill level of the player.

[roadkillrobin]

If the outgoin healdebuff build actually would work,(Kisses/Bullets can only proc on main target) you could get away with two of these classes to maintain Kiss/Bullet procs on the healers.

Last time I checked, Dragongun procs on everyone it hits, same for On Your Knees, has a 25% chance to proc your kisses.

Maybe on WH then since it's a guaranteed proc. On WE last i checked the Kisses would only proc on 1 target so i figured there was a ICD on the kisses just like the Covenants and dps Prayer, Flames of Ruin/Frozen Touch.

[scatterthewinds]

this is a video I made a very long time ago, it is a prime example of single target 12 man vs aoe warband level. The results speak for themselves. I actually talk a bit about aoe vs single target groups in orvr.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7S0hGTotdE&t=880s

[Akilinus]

this is a video I made a very long time ago, it is a prime example of single target 12 man vs aoe warband level. The results speak for themselves. I actually talk a bit about aoe vs single target groups in orvr.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7S0hGTotdE&t=880s

You are not fighting the other wb 1v1 with that 12 man. From what I can tell you use destro pugs as meatshield while your 12man is farming single target kills.

[scatterthewinds]

There are only a few minutes where we are joined by pugs AFAIK. our group is probably taking a bunch of the damage. Its irrelevant to the point though, which is how effective single target is at orvr wb level play.

Its also a 17 min long video, and you commented on it after 10 min, so obviously the whole thing wasn't watched. Probably just skimmed through it?