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TiberiusD
Posts: 237

Scenarios fate

Post#1 » Mon Aug 26, 2019 11:40 am

Hello!

As the title says, i would like to talk with you about some aspects related to Scenarios.

1. T2/T3 SCs pop - compared with T4 and T1, these have the longest pop/queue time for all which is a paradox (at least for me) because a lot of people are leveling and they cannot play SCs due to population. Even me, with my alt i queued for SCs in EU primetime (8-9 PM Altdorf) and waited 2 hours for one and didn't get it
2. Increase number of players in SCs - as you may know already, there are 6 groups per faction in one SC so there can be a maximum 72 players in one session. Imagine the PvP for those. In my opinion,let more people join the same scenarios will grant us with some good scale PvP, a lot of fun and a good coordination training
3. Put more 5-flag Scenarios in rotation - according to my Knowledge there are some very big SCs like Thunder Valley, Battle of Praag, Gromril Crossing and Blood of the Black Cairn (correct me if i am wrong). These scenarios "can swallow" 18 players per faction so around 36 people fighting
4. SC rewards - compared to live, the gear from SCs is pretty much done. I mean according to emblem types, there is gear + weapons for each type. Why not tweak it a bit to get close to the current RvR ones? i saw some discussions some days ago in which people were suggesting increase the stats a bit for weapons + gear (because not all of us want to do PvP or are tired of blobbing in RvR)
5. Matchmaking - i remember back in live where there were those SCs tournaments between guilds. Why not resurrect them here - this is a future project, not saying to implement it now because devs are busy and i can understand that
6. Queue based or archetype - i mean, when for example 1 Tank with SnB and 1 Tank with 2h or 1 Heal (specced as heal) and 1 heal (specced as DPS) queue, all should queue as their archetypes not based on gear. Like that, will be possible to have 2 tank, 2 heals and 2 dps per group (not taking into consideration their specs)
7. Scenario addon - i know that this will be a bit hard to do, but it will be nice to have a addon which can show the queue time for that character which is using it and also for that one to be able to see how many tanks, heals and DPSs are queuing for that specific SCs. Like that, the player will know and will be mentally ready for that SC.
8. Scenario list - will be possible to add all the Scenarios which were on live server? Like for example
- Dragon's Bane (Tier 4)
- Grovod Caverns (Tier 4)
I know that there were some other ones but i cannot remember their names now
9. increase the points based on SC type - i know that now the maximum is 500 points, but why not increasing it based on Scenario Type?
10. increase kill points - instead of getting 3 points per killing, why not getting 5 points? when they will see that +5 point increase on their scoreboard, people will be motivated to kill more :)
I will be happy to discuss with you about this things and maybe devs can extract some nice things from this thread for future implementation.

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Tom
Posts: 72

Re: Scenarios fate

Post#2 » Mon Aug 26, 2019 11:57 am

TiberiusD wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 11:40 am
Hello!

As the title says, i would like to talk with you about some aspects related to Scenarios.

1. T2/T3 SCs pop - compared with T4 and T1, these have the longest pop/queue time for all which is a paradox (at least for me) because a lot of people are leveling and they cannot play SCs due to population. Even me, with my alt i queued for SCs in EU primetime (8-9 PM Altdorf) and waited 2 hours for one and didn't get it
2. Increase number of players in SCs - as you may know already, there are 6 groups per faction in one SC so there can be a maximum 72 players in one session. Imagine the PvP for those. In my opinion,let more people join the same scenarios will grant us with some good scale PvP, a lot of fun and a good coordination training
3. Put more 5-flag Scenarios in rotation - according to my Knowledge there are some very big SCs like Thunder Valley, Battle of Praag, Gromril Crossing and Blood of the Black Cairn (correct me if i am wrong). These scenarios "can swallow" 18 players per faction so around 36 people fighting
4. SC rewards - compared to live, the gear from SCs is pretty much done. I mean according to emblem types, there is gear + weapons for each type. Why not tweak it a bit to get close to the current RvR ones? i saw some discussions some days ago in which people were suggesting increase the stats a bit for weapons + gear (because not all of us want to do PvP or are tired of blobbing in RvR)
5. Matchmaking - i remember back in live where there were those SCs tournaments between guilds. Why not resurrect them here - this is a future project, not saying to implement it now because devs are busy and i can understand that
6. Queue based or archetype - i mean, when for example 1 Tank with SnB and 1 Tank with 2h or 1 Heal (specced as heal) and 1 heal (specced as DPS) queue, all should queue as their archetypes not based on gear. Like that, will be possible to have 2 tank, 2 heals and 2 dps per group (not taking into consideration their specs)
7. Scenario addon - i know that this will be a bit hard to do, but it will be nice to have a addon which can show the queue time for that character which is using it and also for that one to be able to see how many tanks, heals and DPSs are queuing for that specific SCs. Like that, the player will know and will be mentally ready for that SC.
8. Scenario list - will be possible to add all the Scenarios which were on live server? Like for example
- Dragon's Bane (Tier 4)
- Grovod Caverns (Tier 4)
I know that there were some other ones but i cannot remember their names now
9. increase the points based on SC type - i know that now the maximum is 500 points, but why not increasing it based on Scenario Type?
10. increase kill points - instead of getting 3 points per killing, why not getting 5 points? when they will see that +5 point increase on their scoreboard, people will be motivated to kill more :)
I will be happy to discuss with you about this things and maybe devs can extract some nice things from this thread for future implementation.
I dont quite see your logic. I would think smaller population scenarios would yield more scenario pops. The one thing that could stop that is the class matching algorithm. But if you make scenarios large scale, you say it yourself, one scenario will have the capability of sucking in blob size numbers.. that to me sounds like the potential for many pops is reduced. The far from perfect solution in my book would be to disable the class-matching for mid tier scenarios. Personally I think (and know) many do queue scenario when, and because, RVR gets zergy.. if you attempt to replicate that warband vs warband RVR experience into scenarios.. I would think you would put many players off playing scenarios.. net result? I dont profess to know, but I suspect you would be more likely to get even fewer pops rather than more.

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peterthepan3
Posts: 6509

Re: Scenarios fate

Post#3 » Mon Aug 26, 2019 12:00 pm

1. That's an inevitability with such a low population, I'm afraid. XP events tend to get the T2/T3 SCs popping back-to-back, though (so maybe...more of them?! =D )

2 & 3. Please don't have multiple 18/24-man SC in the rotation simultaneously: I'd wager that most people queue for SC for a break from the zerging/largescale that is prevalent in RvR, wanting some smaller, more balanced fights. Having multiple zerg SC in the rotation leads to the others rarely (if ever) popping. Also, please...there's no need to have an abundance of 5-flag SC in the rotation; too many 'Dora the Explorer's Cardiovascular Adventure: 2019 Edition' maps in the rotation simultaneously can get incredibly boring very quickly.

4. Better rewards for SC is a no-brainer, so I'm with you wholeheartedly on this.

5. Tournaments between guilds would be a great thing, for sure.

6. A DPS-spec'd healer should never, ever be considered a healer in the queue: Divine Fury + other -healing tactics will make your heals pitiful, and also 'forces' the player to heal (aren't we all about choice? :P ). 2H tanks, on the other hand, should never be considered as DPS in the queue.

7. Nothing to say.

8. Grovord Caverns would be cool.

9. Increasing the points from 500 upwards - especially with current Domination issue - will be disastrous in curbstomps. Also, it's often hard enough as it is to accumulate 500 points within the 10-15 minute timer.

10. Kills should be more meaningful in all SC.
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Natherul
Lead Developer
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Re: Scenarios fate

Post#4 » Mon Aug 26, 2019 1:03 pm

TiberiusD wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 11:40 am
Hello!

As the title says, i would like to talk with you about some aspects related to Scenarios.

1. T2/T3 SCs pop - compared with T4 and T1, these have the longest pop/queue time for all which is a paradox (at least for me) because a lot of people are leveling and they cannot play SCs due to population. Even me, with my alt i queued for SCs in EU primetime (8-9 PM Altdorf) and waited 2 hours for one and didn't get it
2. Increase number of players in SCs - as you may know already, there are 6 groups per faction in one SC so there can be a maximum 72 players in one session. Imagine the PvP for those. In my opinion,let more people join the same scenarios will grant us with some good scale PvP, a lot of fun and a good coordination training
3. Put more 5-flag Scenarios in rotation - according to my Knowledge there are some very big SCs like Thunder Valley, Battle of Praag, Gromril Crossing and Blood of the Black Cairn (correct me if i am wrong). These scenarios "can swallow" 18 players per faction so around 36 people fighting
4. SC rewards - compared to live, the gear from SCs is pretty much done. I mean according to emblem types, there is gear + weapons for each type. Why not tweak it a bit to get close to the current RvR ones? i saw some discussions some days ago in which people were suggesting increase the stats a bit for weapons + gear (because not all of us want to do PvP or are tired of blobbing in RvR)
5. Matchmaking - i remember back in live where there were those SCs tournaments between guilds. Why not resurrect them here - this is a future project, not saying to implement it now because devs are busy and i can understand that
6. Queue based or archetype - i mean, when for example 1 Tank with SnB and 1 Tank with 2h or 1 Heal (specced as heal) and 1 heal (specced as DPS) queue, all should queue as their archetypes not based on gear. Like that, will be possible to have 2 tank, 2 heals and 2 dps per group (not taking into consideration their specs)
7. Scenario addon - i know that this will be a bit hard to do, but it will be nice to have a addon which can show the queue time for that character which is using it and also for that one to be able to see how many tanks, heals and DPSs are queuing for that specific SCs. Like that, the player will know and will be mentally ready for that SC.
8. Scenario list - will be possible to add all the Scenarios which were on live server? Like for example
- Dragon's Bane (Tier 4)
- Grovod Caverns (Tier 4)
I know that there were some other ones but i cannot remember their names now
9. increase the points based on SC type - i know that now the maximum is 500 points, but why not increasing it based on Scenario Type?
10. increase kill points - instead of getting 3 points per killing, why not getting 5 points? when they will see that +5 point increase on their scoreboard, people will be motivated to kill more :)
I will be happy to discuss with you about this things and maybe devs can extract some nice things from this thread for future implementation.
Please make some spaces in the future as this is a massive wall of text.

1. not sure what your point is here, pops are 100% based on how many queue.

2. more people per SC will probably mean less pops as well and some if not outright most are not meant for bigger forces.

3. These SCs are on rotation just like the others, rotation happen each Monday and is totally random apart from PUG and Premade specific SCs.

4. Something we are continuously talking about, however its more likely we will expand SCs at some point for more gear and split from normal SCs. This for a myriad of reasons.

5. You mean premade queues?

6. No, not going to happen. It wont help anyone. Tell me if I play a DPS DoK for example and I refuse to heal because I just want to DPS, would you when matched with me consider me a healer?

7. Generally anyone can make an addon, but also with the low population of people queuing for SCs, making some sort of estimate is VERY hard. especially if we have a system that looks at your archetype and attempts to make as balanced teams as it can.

8. We are working to implement stuff, not too long ago we added black fire keep SC, and the others we want to restore as well however as always we dont give ETAs, especially when there is so much other things to do and fix.

9. From 500? why?

10. points per kill can already be easily adjusted HOWEVER, note that the team as a whole do NOT want SCs with objectives to EVER turn into killspam SCs where objectives are ignored. Increasing points per kills then as people have quite recently shown that they are more interested i nkillfarming over objectives is not a good path to take.
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Sulorie
Posts: 4160

Re: Scenarios fate

Post#5 » Mon Aug 26, 2019 1:30 pm

Natherul wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 1:03 pm
6. No, not going to happen. It wont help anyone. Tell me if I play a DPS DoK for example and I refuse to heal because I just want to DPS, would you when matched with me consider me a healer?

7. Generally anyone can make an addon, but also with the low population of people queuing for SCs, making some sort of estimate is VERY hard. especially if we have a system that looks at your archetype and attempts to make as balanced teams as it can.
Most player will prefer dps healers in a pug than no healer at all or just no sc pop at all, because the system is waiting for a healer.
This was a "fix" without a problem, with plenty negative side-effects.
Those who want to have guaranteed healers, can form a group like in the past, 10 years ago.

The sc balance isn't better as before but the queue times are much slower. It was a night-day-difference, when you released it on patch day.
Dying is no option.

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Natherul
Lead Developer
Posts: 3055
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Re: Scenarios fate

Post#6 » Mon Aug 26, 2019 1:32 pm

Sulorie wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 1:30 pm
Natherul wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 1:03 pm
6. No, not going to happen. It wont help anyone. Tell me if I play a DPS DoK for example and I refuse to heal because I just want to DPS, would you when matched with me consider me a healer?

7. Generally anyone can make an addon, but also with the low population of people queuing for SCs, making some sort of estimate is VERY hard. especially if we have a system that looks at your archetype and attempts to make as balanced teams as it can.
Most player will prefer dps healers in a pug than no healer at all or just no sc pop at all, because the system is waiting for a healer.
This was a "fix" without a problem, with plenty negative side-effects.
Those who want to have guaranteed healers, can form a group like in the past, 10 years ago.

The sc balance isn't better as before but the queue times are much slower. It was a night-day-difference, when you released it on patch day.
The system will do its best to form balanced groups, that is if one side has 1 healer so should the other. If it cant it will open it regardless however as long as there is enough to make a team at all (filling the minimum req of players on both sides). And a healer who dont heal, is that really a healer?
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Sulorie
Posts: 4160

Re: Scenarios fate

Post#7 » Mon Aug 26, 2019 1:59 pm

Natherul wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 1:32 pm

The system will do its best to form balanced groups, that is if one side has 1 healer so should the other. If it cant it will open it regardless however as long as there is enough to make a team at all (filling the minimum req of players on both sides). And a healer who dont heal, is that really a healer?
A dps healer has 3 options, when being the only healer, if he wants to win.

Stay the way they are and ignore healing teammates. Those are bad dps healers.

Stay in dps gear and use mechanic enhanced heals to support the grp in low pressure situations, like in pug vs pug sc. This is the ideal type of dps healer outside of a premade, where you have reliable healers, who fulfill the job.

As 3rd option you can swap gear/tactics (easy with closet goblin addon) and be at least 50-75% as effective as a true healer, which can be enough, unless you face a good premade.

I ask you, what is the difference to a tank, who does not guard or a dps class, which is just bad at their job? We talk about dps healers not healing and seem to ignore that other classes can fail at their core role as well.
Teams with bad players tend to lose SC, no matter what classes.
Sometimes teams without healers win by pure force and experienced players.
Since 10 years people were able to deal with SC matchmaking but now we rework it completely, with good intentions I agree, but mess it up completely with subpar queue times and the exact same random setups as before.

I just don't understand the logic behind it to make something worse with the same results. It does not work.
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Ironbeard
Posts: 6

Re: Scenarios fate

Post#8 » Mon Aug 26, 2019 2:08 pm

Natherul, would you at least consider counting 2h tanks as tanks and not dps? Because the majority ARE tanks. Maybe if they slot focused offense, count them as a dps, but otherwise they are tanks. Its inflating the pool of dps and deflating the pool of tanks, and the niche of 2h tanks IS scenarios, so it seems so very odd to penalize them.

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Tesq
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Re: Scenarios fate

Post#9 » Mon Aug 26, 2019 2:16 pm

Ironbeard wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 2:08 pm
Natherul, would you at least consider counting 2h tanks as tanks and not dps? Because the majority ARE tanks. Maybe if they slot focused offense, count them as a dps, but otherwise they are tanks. Its inflating the pool of dps and deflating the pool of tanks, and the niche of 2h tanks IS scenarios, so it seems so very odd to penalize them.
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Natherul
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Re: Scenarios fate

Post#10 » Mon Aug 26, 2019 2:40 pm

Ironbeard wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 2:08 pm
Natherul, would you at least consider counting 2h tanks as tanks and not dps? Because the majority ARE tanks. Maybe if they slot focused offense, count them as a dps, but otherwise they are tanks. Its inflating the pool of dps and deflating the pool of tanks, and the niche of 2h tanks IS scenarios, so it seems so very odd to penalize them.
I dont make decisions on my own, but from me thats an absolute no. If you want to be a tank then use the proper weapons for it.
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