Warband Winconditions & Morales

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wonshot
Posts: 373

Re: Warband Winconditions & Morales

Post#21 » Wed Oct 16, 2019 6:36 pm

AngryVaran wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 6:20 pm
> I theorycrafted a setup looking like
> theorycrafted
> So yeah, different comps and ideas have been tried and tested
> tested
> Tested as theory

RoR Simulator alpha build 0.112?
As I said, tried and tested. It took two months roughly to get the slayers full invader or Vanq Mix geared to actually do a propper test. Anything else you want to nitpick and try to derail in the topic. So far you havnt really brought much else to the conversation :roll:

Apart from some old video you might have seen of a Warband hugging keepwalls and other players chasing them for one minut to build burning heads :lol:
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madrocks
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Re: Warband Winconditions & Morales

Post#22 » Wed Oct 16, 2019 6:45 pm

wonshot wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:48 pm
madrocks wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:24 pm
A whooole lot of emotion
So you disagree, cool. Why exactly?

As you judge me in this topic, ill judge you just the same way. You are a pug warbandleader who previously have been leading via typing ingame commands and relying on macroes. Probably got a negativ trackrecord vs discord-warbands and therefor tries to downplay any coordination used in guildwarbands.

Welcome to the scene buddy, got any arguements you would like to present, the mic is yours (not litterally, we can type as you prefer)
lol, Bombling. Sorry not sorry you misunderstood my Destro biased humor towards easy-mode-play-style.
PUG war-band leader indeed. 3fg 2/2/2 setups + notorious p4 without healer. Positive "trackrecord" occasionally rolling over organized ones.
Yeah.. "welcome to the scene, buddy". \o/

--
Remove the unnecessary Sorc M2 mirror. Massively Nerf Solarflare or remove it. And put a knockback immunity on the last tick of Winds of Insanity. Something like this would make for much more enjoyable even numbers competitive fighting both in the open but also in keepsieges. While I do know I have some Order Bias, I have also done my fair share of playing against really good Destro premade guilds, and played some Destro warband comps myself. I am no expert, but ive been around for quite some time and seen what works and what is just anti-fun.
As said, I disagree with the end of your topic.
Why should removing the 30ft aoe m2 tool of a kiting/brawler class from one realm help to balance "winning conditions" in a 24vs24 environment in whom the other realm still has it?
So what shall Destro do then when they meet a full assumed cookie cutter Order bombing warband in your fictional 24vs24 without sorcs that run aoe m2. Kite and prey for snares, disrupts and heals?
It seems like to me that you drop a captain obvious text-bomb about career builder cookie setups to justify yet another Destro nerf.
KOTBS Solar Flare should not be in-game in the first place without giving Destro the same ability.
Order biased alright.

Since I am at it now...
--
So how come Destro have more availability than Order does? Cant sorcs Bomb just as well as BW?
Yes and No.
Funnel power is a huge part of the difference between Sorc and BW aoe output. And without diving too deep into what makes either classes better, both have the capability to become the only DPS class you slot for a 24man Bombwarband. However...

Since Order dont have a functioning AoE build that is competitive on the Meleedps classes apart from slayers (WH, WL, ASW) Order competitive compesitions will 9/10 times look heavily stacked with just two AoE-dps classes: BW & Slayer.
Since this is the Meta and Go-to for Order, is now becomes fairly Easy for any competitive Destro Warbandbuilder to put together a counter setup, and that leads me to the actual winconditions.
So.. the disability of thinking out of the box and include other Order classes in the warband is the reason for the so called "Go-to Meta" ? It certainly is the reason Order are that predictable on the battlefield. You would think Chinesehero and The Eternal Host are the only ones stepping out of that 2009 bullshit.

--
Destro winconditions:
Race the BW M2 drop with the Mirrored M2 drop on Sorc
Morale draining Maras sitting on top of BWs to drain, while building towards M2 and dropping morales first
Blackorc self-morale pumping and reaching M3 to aoe silence the BW ball for 5sec (can be combined with Shaman grouppump)
Zealot Winds of Insanity no knockback immunity displacement on the BW ball.
Mara AoE knockdown on the BW ball to stop the BW-selfpump
Undefendable choppapulls (can be mixed for great destro amusement after a full Zealot channel)
There is no race. BW bombing is superior to Sorc bombing. BW has instacast tactic on disrupt (bugged btw). BW has 5% Crit increase from Kotbs tactic, BW has wound superiority from WP. BW have also red hair and we all know what that means!

Marauder takes a dps/Sorc M2 spot, for a proper marauder directional m2 you need a shaman moral pump, a shaman takes the place of Zealot or DOK, no zealot means that the group is not that tanky, no dok means the group lacks of covenant. It's a clear trade off for a 25% chance on defensible moral remove.

Zealot Winds of Insanity is a good thing. You have other goodies on Order to counter that, again.. think out of the box.
If the zealot survives the punting channeling, you did something wrong in the first place. The zealot takes a spot in the warband too, how about you take something with you in your warband to counter it? Do you even have a warband? Yeah.. I thought so.

"Undefendable choppapulls": so stagger, silence, mara KD and PUGs don't spread immunity right?

Wanna talk about Engi rift vs Magus rift; Dodge vs. Disrupt?
Lutzgaroth

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wonshot
Posts: 373

Re: Warband Winconditions & Morales

Post#23 » Wed Oct 16, 2019 8:22 pm

madrocks wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 6:45 pm

Remove the unnecessary Sorc M2 mirror. Massively Nerf Solarflare or remove it. And put a knockback immunity on the last tick of Winds of Insanity. Something like this would make for much more enjoyable even numbers competitive fighting both in the open but also in keepsieges. While I do know I have some Order Bias, I have also done my fair share of playing against really good Destro premade guilds, and played some Destro warband comps myself. I am no expert, but ive been around for quite some time and seen what works and what is just anti-fun.

As said, I disagree with the end of your topic.
Why should removing the 30ft aoe m2 tool of a kiting/brawler class from one realm help to balance "winning conditions" in a 24vs24 environment in whom the other realm still has it?
And that pretty much brings me to the meat of the topic. If you reread my initial post I make the arguement that the Mytic old RoR realm-balance was made between Order unskilled BW stacking with zero creativity, for them to Reach M2 before destro.

While destro on the otherhand have the following tools to directly counter and outskill Order:

1)Morale drain on Maruder, to keep the BW M2 drop in check and then have a 1200 M2 drop on the very same class.

2)Zealot Winds of Insanity, despite common belief on the forums you can not taunt to interrupt the selfblessing nor can you remove it with tanks. However everyones favorit order tank, knight, can slot Banish Darkness and put a big fat Enemy marker over the Zealot and put him to Africa :roll: Still gives the first fight of the night to the zealot with suprice factor however.

3) Blackorcs selfpump or combined with Shaman pumping, to reach M3 and AoE silence the filthy BW ball for 5seconds.

4) Zealot S.T.F.U M3 Aoe silence on the BW stack. (Mythic meme name)

So for the sake of the arguement, why does Sorc need this Mirror? They dont. Why does destro need to Race to M2 when they have win conditions on M3 and directcounters to the 2009 Order meta, for the record noone really loves playing and Order have been screaming for WL to get warband viable (just like you guys dont really enjoy the damage of your chop and maras)

If we turn it all up-side down. And then look at what tools Order have to beat a 2-2-2 8sorc warband comp. You dont see the amazing utility tools like "winds of insanity, aoe knockdown, garenteed isolation-pull-on-the-move-speedup"

Last but not least. Dont mistake my intention, I do not want Order to have a super big advantage. I might be living in the past and be nostalgic, but arnt we all on this server. All I really want it just really fun even fights. And Shatter "shatters" this vision. And noone but the current or previous top Destro guilds have agreed with this.
Solarflare on the other hand, sure delete that ****. its anti-fun

#Edit: Flashfire is not instant and have not been for well over a year.
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AngryVaran
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Re: Warband Winconditions & Morales

Post#24 » Wed Oct 16, 2019 10:29 pm

wonshot wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 8:22 pm

So for the sake of the arguement, why does Sorc need this Mirror? They dont. Why does destro need to Race to M2 when they have win conditions on M3 and directcounters to the 2009 Order meta, for the record noone really loves playing and Order have been screaming for WL to get warband viable (just like you guys dont really enjoy the damage of your chop and maras)

If we turn it all up-side down. And then look at what tools Order have to beat a 2-2-2 8sorc warband comp. You dont see the amazing utility tools like "winds of insanity, aoe knockdown, garenteed isolation-pull-on-the-move-speedup"

Last but not least. Dont mistake my intention, I do not want Order to have a super big advantage. I might be living in the past and be nostalgic, but arnt we all on this server. All I really want it just really fun even fights. And Shatter "shatters" this vision. And noone but the current or previous top Destro guilds have agreed with this.
Solarflare on the other hand, sure delete that ****. its anti-fun

#Edit: Flashfire is not instant and have not been for well over a year.
So for the sake of the arguement, why does KotbS need this morale drain/Deataunt( -50% incoming damage for tank, rly?)/15% heal increace/5% crit chance on block? They dont. Or what? Why you talking only bout destro classes?
Marauder drain your morales? Only when they hit you and only with 50% chance, and this is 225 points. Then we have kotbs with solar flare...
You talking like crybaby who wants just fight with dummys with abilities. Anti-fun cause you want some old AoR expirience. Find new meta, this is not 2008.

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wonshot
Posts: 373

Re: Warband Winconditions & Morales

Post#25 » Wed Oct 16, 2019 11:04 pm

AngryVaran wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 10:29 pm
...Why you talking only bout destro classes?
...
I quite litterally listed abilities from both realms, and agreed with you that Solarflare is both anti fun, doesnt feel rewarding to perform, and just makes for dull gameplay. :roll:
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Komode
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Re: Warband Winconditions & Morales

Post#26 » Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:20 am

Bombling, my friend.
You talk about Winds of Insanity but not talking about engi punt 25+ targets.
You talk about ShatterM2 should be nerfed but not talking that destro tanks damaging morales were moved to m3 earlier and their moralepump tactics were nerfed aswell.
You talk about choppapull but not talking about Slayer 100% chance to apply cd increase, also dmg output comparing to choppa (rampage+shatterlimbs+Inevitable Doom). Choppa pull is just annoying trolling ability when you play not against pugs with no setup.
If you will remove Shatter m2 from sorcs you should move damaging morales of destro tanks to M2 at least. This is how it was working all the time. BWs had M2, destro tanks had Razes. It was balanced like that ALL time.
Ok, mara morale drain is very annoying. What about Burning Head M4 morale drain component? Plus you should not gimp your BW spec to slot it or take a melee so so bombing damage oriented class (mara) instead of sorc. Well, remove morale drain component from BH M4 and Solar Flare, give order melee class same morale drain tactic, not to slayer please.
Lets be more constructive. If you want to nerf smth, give smth instead at least or try to think, why it was added or removed.
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wonshot
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Re: Warband Winconditions & Morales

Post#27 » Thu Oct 17, 2019 1:36 am

How do we constantly end up with these misconceptions of I just want Order to gain something?
And raze being moved to M3 from M2 is a good point, but that goes for both realm's tanks not just Destro, though with the selfpump advantage.

As for your last line " at least try to think why it was added or removed" Well for the exact same reason BW M2 was changed to a wounds debuff a year back, and then reverted back. Bandaid changed because the population was bleeding.

This is an old change, but can I only speak up each time the tables flip and one realm dominated? It shouldnt be like that. So yeah Shatter M2 on Sorcs (and solar flare on knights) are messing up with the realm-balance imo for the reasons ive listed on here several times by now.

For all I care remove Solarflare, remove Shatter, move Raze back to M2 for tank archtype and increase the moral rate to how it was on Live. I really just want fun warband clashes
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Acidic
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Re: Warband Winconditions & Morales

Post#28 » Thu Oct 17, 2019 6:02 am

You talk of realm balance as a driver for this suggested nerf mainly destro thread, yet there is no clear dominating side at the moment.
Winning at the moment is driven by numbers on each side and numbers are in their turn driven by number of organized war bands on the field.

This suggests if you are looosing. Which should be the case from your justification of realm balance the most likely you are not filling your Warband ,

The big issue on balance right now is in siege where order has a big advantage with the said solar turd sand Slayer rampage.
If you’re truly after a fight I would start there because there is no grounds to say destro rolll over order , other direction probably more the case when fields are even

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roadkillrobin
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Re: Warband Winconditions & Morales

Post#29 » Thu Oct 17, 2019 7:35 am

So Solar Flare is considered broken now?
I don't even know how many Order main players that argued this skill was complete trash and pointed and laughed when I sugested you should spec and build your group around it. Bet then again, so did people when I sugested that building groups around other Moral strategies as well. How things have changed.
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Acidic
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Re: Warband Winconditions & Morales

Post#30 » Thu Oct 17, 2019 1:18 pm

roadkillrobin wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 7:35 am
So Solar Flare is considered broken now?
I don't even know how many Order main players that argued this skill was complete trash and pointed and laughed when I sugested you should spec and build your group around it. Bet then again, so did people when I sugested that building groups around other Moral strategies as well. How things have changed.
Having a thing and understanding when and how to use it has always been a issue for some people.
But think this skill is 99% funnel oriented and that is what forts are, so with forts this things realy makes a difference.

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