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[Theorycrafting] Toughness is broken (or useless) for DoTs

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hogun
Posts: 241

Re: [Theorycrafting] Toughness is broken (or useless) for DoTs

Post#21 » Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:06 pm

Please dabbart do you really think the test was only done on one skill? It's just an example to introduce the subject
thank you all for believing that some testing was done before asking the question.
Grimbur wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:24 pm


I want to add that I did the exact same tests with physical DoTs and the result were just the same.
So it is not a Physical/Magical difference. It is just a DoT thing.



Groumf, DAMMAZ KRON !!!
Last edited by hogun on Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyJx3So8q6o
DAMMAZ KRON !!!
Hogun - IB 80+ :D Hoguun RP 5O+ Hogunn ING 60+ HOG Slayer 70+ Hathrandor IB 2M 40
and
KOBS 40, WH 40, WP40,BW40,SW40
and
BO40, CHOSEN 40, SH40, MAGUS 40, MARAU 40 :twisted:

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hogun
Posts: 241

Re: [Theorycrafting] Toughness is broken (or useless) for DoTs

Post#22 » Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:10 pm

Grimbur wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:42 pm


With the same offensive and defensive stats,

a Direct Damage does 477(-313) to my tank
a DoT does 1610(-145) over 15 sec to my tank

Groumf
Look, it's crazy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyJx3So8q6o
DAMMAZ KRON !!!
Hogun - IB 80+ :D Hoguun RP 5O+ Hogunn ING 60+ HOG Slayer 70+ Hathrandor IB 2M 40
and
KOBS 40, WH 40, WP40,BW40,SW40
and
BO40, CHOSEN 40, SH40, MAGUS 40, MARAU 40 :twisted:

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Wiede
Posts: 193

Re: [Theorycrafting] Toughness is broken (or useless) for DoTs

Post#23 » Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:15 pm

Haha, i don't even need to read more than 1 post of this thread to know people not understanding the calculation of mainstat and toughness dependent on used skill. Also the mitigation formula of toughness...

And i'm pretty sure someone even tried to explain it somewhere on this 3 pages without success :lol:
Good luck guys...

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hogun
Posts: 241

Re: [Theorycrafting] Toughness is broken (or useless) for DoTs

Post#24 » Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:23 pm

Wiede thank you for your very useful intervention
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyJx3So8q6o
DAMMAZ KRON !!!
Hogun - IB 80+ :D Hoguun RP 5O+ Hogunn ING 60+ HOG Slayer 70+ Hathrandor IB 2M 40
and
KOBS 40, WH 40, WP40,BW40,SW40
and
BO40, CHOSEN 40, SH40, MAGUS 40, MARAU 40 :twisted:

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zachary
Posts: 67

Re: [Theorycrafting] Toughness is broken (or useless) for DoTs

Post#25 » Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:24 pm

Your numbers don't add up, because you don't understand how damage is calculated.
Well, the point of this entire thread is that _no one_ does, or if they do it isn't common knowledge, so yes, you're correct. Specifically, I don't know how Toughness impacts damage calculations. You claim to, but your numbers still don't add up for me.

Radiance lance is a 2s cast. [condescending comment removed] More seconds in the cast, the higher main stat is utilized, and the higher Toughness is utilized. A 2s cast, against 665 toughness = -266dps (approx 133 -dps from toughness [665/5]x2)
That *still* doesn't help reconcile these numbers:
>Toughness 665.
>DD: Archmage's Radiant Lance hits you for 477 damage. (313 mitigated)
>DoT: Archmage's Law of Conductivity hits you for 322 damage. (29 mitigated)

By your reasoning, the 313 mitigated somehow comes from the -266 number. That's a variance of +18%, so... I guess that's resaonable? Seems a bit high to me.

While the 'instant cast' DoT is mitigated for 203 (29*7 ticks) dps, which should again come from the -266 number which is -24%. Though how you apply 'dps' to 'instant' of course is going to matter here. (naively -10dps over 0 seconds ('instant') is -0dps! no mitigation - which sis clearly wrong)

So I *still* don't see how those add up.

again, stat benefits and weapon DPS differ from ability to ability, and damage isn't a static number so they wont add up perfectly all of the time. Which is why you gotta run the test 10-100 times to get avg numbers.
Yes! More data would help! I'd love it if @Grimnur would post the relevant combat log portions (including full DoT ticks) of multiple tests instead of just a summary.
[more condescending comments removed] Try the Instant AM dps ability.
I looked on RoR builder but I couldn't find an instant AM dps ability, which is why I suggested trying a test with a BW's Nova.
Or compare a DoT to another DoT with different duration.
Wait, I thought duration didn't matter to mitigation? Only cast time? Though testing vs a DoT with a cast time would be useful too - though a quick search of the AM and BW abiltiies didn't turn one up.
Xand*r*nius is still trying to Learn To Play

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Haskr
Posts: 370

Re: [Theorycrafting] Toughness is broken (or useless) for DoTs

Post#26 » Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:44 pm

zachary wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:24 pm
Your numbers don't add up, because you don't understand how damage is calculated.
Well, the point of this entire thread is that _no one_ does, or if they do it isn't common knowledge, so yes, you're correct. Specifically, I don't know how Toughness impacts damage calculations. You claim to, but your numbers still don't add up for me.

Radiance lance is a 2s cast. [condescending comment removed] More seconds in the cast, the higher main stat is utilized, and the higher Toughness is utilized. A 2s cast, against 665 toughness = -266dps (approx 133 -dps from toughness [665/5]x2)
That *still* doesn't help reconcile these numbers:
>Toughness 665.
>DD: Archmage's Radiant Lance hits you for 477 damage. (313 mitigated)
>DoT: Archmage's Law of Conductivity hits you for 322 damage. (29 mitigated)

By your reasoning, the 313 mitigated somehow comes from the -266 number. That's a variance of +18%, so... I guess that's resaonable? Seems a bit high to me.

While the 'instant cast' DoT is mitigated for 203 (29*7 ticks) dps, which should again come from the -266 number which is -24%. Though how you apply 'dps' to 'instant' of course is going to matter here. (naively -10dps over 0 seconds ('instant') is -0dps! no mitigation - which sis clearly wrong)

So I *still* don't see how those add up.

again, stat benefits and weapon DPS differ from ability to ability, and damage isn't a static number so they wont add up perfectly all of the time. Which is why you gotta run the test 10-100 times to get avg numbers.
Yes! More data would help! I'd love it if @Grimnur would post the relevant combat log portions (including full DoT ticks) of multiple tests instead of just a summary.
[more condescending comments removed] Try the Instant AM dps ability.
I looked on RoR builder but I couldn't find an instant AM dps ability, which is why I suggested trying a test with a BW's Nova.
Or compare a DoT to another DoT with different duration.
Wait, I thought duration didn't matter to mitigation? Only cast time? Though testing vs a DoT with a cast time would be useful too - though a quick search of the AM and BW abiltiies didn't turn one up.
I think storm of chronos is instant if I remember it right.

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Acidic
Posts: 1421
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Re: [Theorycrafting] Toughness is broken (or useless) for DoTs

Post#27 » Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:55 pm

Think best way forward is to post this on bug tracker and let the devs have this discution :)

Dabbart
Posts: 1970

Re: [Theorycrafting] Toughness is broken (or useless) for DoTs

Post#28 » Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:58 pm

Toughness has nothing to do with %s. it is a FLAT amount. % is irrelevant. Armor/Resistance works via %, NOT toughness. If an ability hits for 600 or 6k base amount, toughness will reduce the same amount. It is a Flat Reduction.

Abilities take DIFFERENT lvls of contribution from attack stat/weapon DPS. it is NOT a direct 1-1. Some abilities have a higher base rate and less stat/weapon DPS, some work the other way.

Damage numbers are not static. Attack a target 10 times. You will see how you get different results. Hence why you should compare averages, not a single picked instance, and why there will be variance.

A casted ability adds it's attack stat/weapon DPS more than an instant. They also take Toughness reduction at a greater rate. Hence why we discuss them as DPS. Emphasis on the Per Second.

Lastly, Toughness can not reduce an attack to 0 or 1. There is a cap to damage reduced to stop people with 200 attack stat hitting derp tanks for 1 damage. This is obviously not an issue here however.

Last try at this... I can't physically be anymore clear.

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Zxul
Posts: 546

Re: [Theorycrafting] Toughness is broken (or useless) for DoTs

Post#29 » Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:18 pm

Dabbart wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:58 pm
Toughness has nothing to do with %s. it is a FLAT amount. % is irrelevant. Armor/Resistance works via %, NOT toughness. If an ability hits for 600 or 6k base amount, toughness will reduce the same amount. It is a Flat Reduction.

Abilities take DIFFERENT lvls of contribution from attack stat/weapon DPS. it is NOT a direct 1-1. Some abilities have a higher base rate and less stat/weapon DPS, some work the other way.

Damage numbers are not static. Attack a target 10 times. You will see how you get different results. Hence why you should compare averages, not a single picked instance, and why there will be variance.

A casted ability adds it's attack stat/weapon DPS more than an instant. They also take Toughness reduction at a greater rate. Hence why we discuss them as DPS. Emphasis on the Per Second.

Lastly, Toughness can not reduce an attack to 0 or 1. There is a cap to damage reduced to stop people with 200 attack stat hitting derp tanks for 1 damage. This is obviously not an issue here however.

Last try at this... I can't physically be anymore clear.
While it is true, the question is the following- if am casts a specific dot, then casts it again while having 100 more intel- does the dmg added by 100 intel is the same, as the dmg removed by target having 100 extra toughness, vs same specific dot? If its the same, then all fine, if however 100 intel isn't equal 100 toughness then there is a problem.
"Can we play with him, master? He seems so unhappy. Let us help him smile. Please? Or at least let us carve one on his face when he stops screaming."

— Azeila, Alluress of Slaanesh

Dabbart
Posts: 1970

Re: [Theorycrafting] Toughness is broken (or useless) for DoTs

Post#30 » Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:24 pm

Spoiler:
Zxul wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:18 pm
Dabbart wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:58 pm
Toughness has nothing to do with %s. it is a FLAT amount. % is irrelevant. Armor/Resistance works via %, NOT toughness. If an ability hits for 600 or 6k base amount, toughness will reduce the same amount. It is a Flat Reduction.

Abilities take DIFFERENT lvls of contribution from attack stat/weapon DPS. it is NOT a direct 1-1. Some abilities have a higher base rate and less stat/weapon DPS, some work the other way.

Damage numbers are not static. Attack a target 10 times. You will see how you get different results. Hence why you should compare averages, not a single picked instance, and why there will be variance.

A casted ability adds it's attack stat/weapon DPS more than an instant. They also take Toughness reduction at a greater rate. Hence why we discuss them as DPS. Emphasis on the Per Second.

Lastly, Toughness can not reduce an attack to 0 or 1. There is a cap to damage reduced to stop people with 200 attack stat hitting derp tanks for 1 damage. This is obviously not an issue here however.

Last try at this... I can't physically be anymore clear.
While it is true, the question is the following- if am casts a specific dot, then casts it again while having 100 more intel- does the dmg added by 100 intel is the same, as the dmg removed by target having 100 extra toughness, vs same specific dot? If its the same, then all fine, if however 100 intel isn't equal 100 toughness then there is a problem.
Technically it would be if that particular ability has a 1.0 ratio of Int. If, for instance, the ability has a .8 mod, then 100 int would give the effectiveness of 80 toughness. Or, if the ability has a 1.2 mod, 100 int would give the effectiveness of 120 toughness. You can test each ability by adding/subtracting 100 int btw. Again, damage numbers aren't static, so run it 10-100 times and take the avg.

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