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PUG and Premade City instances

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toffikx
Posts: 266

Re: PUG and Premade City instances

Post#51 » Sat Apr 04, 2020 3:54 pm

Mystry wrote:
Fri Apr 03, 2020 3:38 am
Vayra wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 8:40 pm
Cities are end-game content. And should reward coordination and preparation. I've both pugged cities, joined 12 mans, and gone in with a premade from some of the better destro guilds. You can always find some group willing to take you, though the very best might be more restrictive on classes and/or gear.
By your own signature you play a sorc, a dok, and a BG.

I challenge you to find a single non-**** city warband that will invite you when you're playing a non-meta class.
That's one of the problems with restricting cities to be the only place to gain royals (along with the 1 royal from fort defence). The same issue will arise when new weapons, jewelry and armor is realesed as 6v6 solo ranked and premade rewards. A lot of classes (mostly rdps) will find themselves unable to aquire those items because of the unfriendly nature of MMR, and 6v6 (atleast in Caledor Woods) being melee-oriented.

And speaking of the city gear, the sets that are designed correctly in terms of stats (many aren't) are on a whole different level than anything we've seen before on RoR. The principle of little power creep that has been the main thought behind RoR gear balancing, seem to have been turned upside down. In terms of small scale, like 6v6, the balance has been totally broken. Large scale fights are also heading towards that direction, with more and more depending on gear rather than actual game knowledge, coordination and "skillz".

With T4 "normal" scenarios becoming almost useless in terms of gear aquisition, with little to no incentivization to defend zones for "endgame" characters, and in the broader picture of whole pairings (cuz only city gives royal crests),with the grind system promoting fortlogging and citylogging, RoR is, atleast in my opinion, in one of the worse eras of its existence. And that is not adding the zone contribution toward forts, and the fort contribution itself, which may result in you not obtaining any tokens after a whole evening of playing.

And the people in power of this project, seem to have a great fear of implementing anything that is atleast close to the conqueror/vanquisher grind system (which in my opinion is the best one the server has yet seen).

Maybe it's time to take a break from RoR, and come back at a time when things has changed for the better of the project (or atleast better the way i see it).
Sorry for the derailing, just wanted to try to put in a broader picture.

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wonshot
Posts: 580

Re: PUG and Premade City instances

Post#52 » Sat Apr 04, 2020 4:40 pm

"organized vs pug" or call it what you want.

Being "premade" or "organized" to me, and this might be different to how others view it.
It does not the slightest mean by default that I am a better player, play with better players, or that I have more time to invest (as MMOs do have timeinvestments as a factor along with progression)
It just simply means someone took the extra effort and time to coordinate and communicate different aspects, wether it being setup, builds, strategy, tactics, assigning voice-roles and whatever else people can coordinate & organize in this game. This is time and energy that everyone can put in, but why do some chose not to?

Well because it can at times seem like a second job, it requires energy, motivation and some effort. But everyone in principle are able to do this. Now when we look at the MMOrpg genre it sticks out from for example the Moba genre (LoL, DotA, Smite, HotS etc.) where you build up your character and progress it along with what some would call a reputation, good or bad, logging in one day and being able to continue where you left off previously on a progression path is the charm of this genre. Some of the progression can be tracked, some is more indirect like making friends, finding people to play with.
In an age of gaming where "press-play" games are more popular than the good old trust Moba genre, these aspect are often forgotten about how you start equil but it is kinda up to you how far, how well and how fast you progress to endgame, just like the methods you use are up to you.

Yes I know the average age of this server is probably higher than we would like to admit, and time is not available for us to sink into hobbies like an MMO, as if we were in our twenties any more. We can still enjoy the realworld-escape on whatever level we choose in the game, but we have to remember our efforts here matters and our enjoyment might depend on it.

I personally spent close to a year trying to build a guild up, with a roster, practise and experience for 24v24 fights for the project to collapse just as cities got introduced. That is time and effort I will not get back, and something most people who do put in the extra effort willingly accept. This is not garenteed succes, phat lewt, or whatever else might motivate you to put that energy & time in. Others on the server have years of group synagy that I will only dream about obtaining someday, but I accept that. Because they put the effort in, and it shows when I press my respawn button when facing them.

Building up a strong 6man team takes alot of defeats, figureing out who **** up where, coming up with adaptations and corrections and learning to play together. Upscale that to 24people and dump down the play a little and you have warband premades. However with much rarely practise enviroments pre-city launch and more people means more room for human error, but thats the charm for some of us I guess.

In the end of the day, rewards should reflect the effort. And right now there are plenty of free handouts in garenteed accumulated lootbagrolls, pug sc, no deathpenalty, bolstering, price reductions and other catchup mechanics. The only area you cant catchup on, is your effort input. And thats on you to take the big boys pants on or "pug it up".
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Mistdancer
Posts: 25

Re: PUG and Premade City instances

Post#53 » Sat Apr 04, 2020 4:50 pm

Panodil wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 9:34 am
So we asking for a solo q city with no career restriction. 24 magus vs 24 engie/sw. Sounds fun
So out of all the interesting points constructed here, and the evolving discussion, you elected to project a once in a trillion possibility strawman argument. Well done.

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Mistdancer
Posts: 25

Re: PUG and Premade City instances

Post#54 » Sat Apr 04, 2020 5:15 pm

wonshot wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 4:40 pm
In the end of the day, rewards should reflect the effort. And right now there are plenty of free handouts in garenteed accumulated lootbagrolls, pug sc, no deathpenalty, bolstering, price reductions and other catchup mechanics. The only area you cant catchup on, is your effort input. And thats on you to take the big boys pants on or "pug it up".
I keep reading about this faint notion of "effort" in this thread (and others for that matter) regarding organizing people etc. The "effort" placed in sniffing out the pretty obviously layed out before you, meta, and actively pursuing "lesser" opponents to face, is not called effort. It is called organized exploitation. If someone spend time to set up a guild/system/group to take advantage of that, that is no reason for applause.

The definition of effort is facing and putting up a good fight against equal odds & terms. THAT is the only effort that should be rewarded accordingly.

I am 40 years old. Throughout the years I have played all the MMOs that mattered. From running around in Everquest, to getting server first clears in vanilla wow. The only effort is time investment. Everyone's time is valuable and equal. Whether their goal is to complete all tome unlocks, do PQs, chat, answer advice questions or excel in RvR, their time spend is of EXACTLY equal value. Everything else is a bedtime story of deteriorating elitism. If we are to reward time investment in this game, then lets go ahead and count peoples time played and give out stuff to the ones with the biggest number in the counter.

Obviously, that is not a solution.

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Hecksa
Posts: 16

Re: PUG and Premade City instances

Post#55 » Sat Apr 04, 2020 6:41 pm

Mistdancer wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 5:15 pm
The definition of effort is facing and putting up a good fight against equal odds & terms. THAT is the only effort that should be rewarded accordingly.
Just to ensure I'm hearing you here. Do you think organised group play should be discouraged?

Because to be quite clear, if you offer organised groups the same reward for facing much harder opponents, that isn't fair on them. You've given them a harder task, for the same reward. Why should they bother to group up? They'd be better off pugging.

I'll reiterate my earlier question:
Hecksa wrote:
Fri Apr 03, 2020 7:58 pm
Premades organise, in part, to increase their chances of winning, and therefore getting gear/renown etc faster. While it will make life easier for pugs, [separate queues] will remove that benefit. What would you give premade groups as a reward for playing in this harder bracket? Why should they bother? If you say "more medallions" or "more renown", please be specific. How much more? Would a losing premade get a bigger reward than a winning pug, given that the losing premade could almost certainly have won had they fought against the winning pug?

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Mistdancer
Posts: 25

Re: PUG and Premade City instances

Post#56 » Sat Apr 04, 2020 8:31 pm

Hecksa wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 6:41 pm
Mistdancer wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 5:15 pm
The definition of effort is facing and putting up a good fight against equal odds & terms. THAT is the only effort that should be rewarded accordingly.
Just to ensure I'm hearing you here. Do you think organised group play should be discouraged?

Because to be quite clear, if you offer organised groups the same reward for facing much harder opponents, that isn't fair on them. You've given them a harder task, for the same reward. Why should they bother to group up? They'd be better off pugging.
Keywords : equal odds & terms

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adapter
Posts: 207

Re: PUG and Premade City instances

Post#57 » Sat Apr 04, 2020 8:37 pm

City PUG idea is very good, when i get to play a city scenario of pug vs pug is where i most enjoy the game.

Playing in a premade scenario is not fun at all, either you get farmed or you farm the enemy premade. This is for both sides very boring because there's no competition at all.

PUG VS PUG IS WHERE DA FUN IZ!!

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Hecksa
Posts: 16

Re: PUG and Premade City instances

Post#58 » Sat Apr 04, 2020 9:38 pm

Mistdancer wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 8:31 pm
Keywords : equal odds & terms
Sure, this is the idealist stance. We''d all love for every city instance to be perfectly balanced. How are you going to achieve it?

Some premade warbands are much better than others. Should the less good ones be forced to lose against the better ones convincingly and repeatedly? Or, again, are you saying the bad warbands have to split up and play as pugs to get a fair fight?

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Kwatchi
Posts: 65

Re: PUG and Premade City instances

Post#59 » Sat Apr 04, 2020 9:40 pm

All but one of my cities has had me as the stomper or stompee - basically boring exercises in passing the time. That one competitive sc had us fighting hard the whole time and we came out all stating how much enjoyed it.

From reading through this thread, a lot of players are having similar experience.

If RoR’s endgame content boils down to simply going through the motions 95% of the time, is it actually fun?
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growill
Posts: 72

Re: PUG and Premade City instances

Post#60 » Sat Apr 04, 2020 10:17 pm

give points to the guild/alliances that win the most, rank them and work out something to have wbs with similar rating fight imo

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