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Bright Wizards are way better than Sorcs in the main part of the game, large scale combat

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Vayra
Posts: 523

Re: Bright Wizards are way better than Sorcs in the main part of the game, large scale combat

Post#31 » Fri May 22, 2020 10:24 am

Hypernia wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 10:16 am
For keeps that's okay. I'd probably swap Fiery Reserves (I'd rather juggle my CDs manually) for Crown of Fire for the better proc, but it's fine.

Is the damage not comparable to this?
RoR.builders - Sorcerer

Are we talking about keep sieges or 24v24 here? Different build required depending ont he scale I would say
For Keeps the extra radius on the BWs abilities would allow for far more damage output (provided there's not enough there hit all available targets anyway). If you're getting hit, Flashfire giving instant Fiery Blasts once in a while also gives a good damage boost.

For 24v24 you might want a different spec or at least different tactics, but someone more experienced with BWs would have to comment on that.

And for the spec you linked, it's got good damage output, but the smaller aoe radius makes for a lower potential output at least at keeps. Also, Infernal Gift doesn't affect self, so the usefulness of that tactic depends on the damage output of the rest of your party (Close Quarters or Frozen Fury is often better IMO).
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Draugris
Posts: 252

Re: Bright Wizards are way better than Sorcs in the main part of the game, large scale combat

Post#32 » Fri May 22, 2020 11:31 am

Wam wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 10:08 pm
people who want to nerf classes are silly... you want them to buff the unloved classes,
That statement makes 0 sense. With only buffing you create an abysmal power creep more sooner than later which would be not healthy for the game.
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poisonedshotz
Posts: 27

Re: Bright Wizards are way better than Sorcs in the main part of the game, large scale combat

Post#33 » Fri May 22, 2020 12:32 pm

Hypernia wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 9:27 am
I think there are other things here that Sorc gets that I would want on BW. For example, extra damage on Sear, or Infernal Wave - but there has to be differences between the classes, or we're just talking exact mirrors and that isn;t what this game is.

I think to be more productive we would need to compare specific builds against each other, because even if all the things you listed were advantages, you can't have them all at the same time. It's fine for classes to have strong tools, if they have to choose between them.

So give me specific builds where BW is better (You didn't mention Burning Head for example) and we can compare.
1. Rain of fire is quite alot better than PoS. To bring the numbers back into it RoF hits 2.25x the area of PoS. In fights where are aren't already hitting the AoE cap, you will hit approximately 2.25x the amount of targets. The concept of the tactic is fine, the 50% radius number isn't.

Infernal wave is a good skill, but both top AoE specs on BW and Sorc play as close range bombers, so the extra range on infernal wave isn't that gamechanging (65->86 feet).

2. Yes aoe knockback being bad is true, but that then also applies to triumphant blasting being worse since it also costs and tactic.

3. Infernal blast crit does ~1400 every 6 seconds, and makes a skill that is hard to use due to its cast time very useful. Infernal gift is only useful situationally such as when you are running more DPS in your group than 2/2/2. Flashfire is useful all the time, you just slap in on and receive benefit. Here's a tip from Bombling on how to deal with flashfire bug "When you get a Flashfire proc and want to use it, Jump and move to A or D side while in the air"

4. Even on less useful skills due to pot/buff not stacking, BW pulls ahead with armor.

5. It's a big drawback but the added damage makes up for it. If you have good healers, turn it on and get free damage. If you don't have good healers, turn it off and you still have better damage than a sorc.

6.

7. The BW hdebuff is 5 points into the tree and can be easily picked up by FBB spec. The Sorc middle tree specs are worthless except for the Word of Pain/Chillwind tactics and laser, I only included them for completeness.

For AoE builds
RoR.builders - Bright Wizard

RoR.builders - Sorcerer
You linked to a Sorc spec which takes the aoe dot and laser on the middle tree, which makes me think that you might play your BW more than sorc - and no, the damage isn't comparable.

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Wam
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Posts: 573

Re: Bright Wizards are way better than Sorcs in the main part of the game, large scale combat

Post#34 » Fri May 22, 2020 12:39 pm

Draugris wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 11:31 am
Wam wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 10:08 pm
people who want to nerf classes are silly... you want them to buff the unloved classes,
That statement makes 0 sense. With only buffing you create an abysmal power creep more sooner than later which would be not healthy for the game.
not when classes such as SW WH Engi are trash in comparison to BW :roll: you can only consider bringing bw down once others are brought up and made "VIABLE" so order doesnt get shafted with even worse selection choices

If you just nerf, you make more and more nerfs and where does that stop? So your original narrow minded view can have unforseen consequences with the ripple effect that is why balance is delicate issue and you have to look at realmwide view, not always just mirror as nothing is direct and if you want to directly mirror you lose the essence of the original game and create a inferior product as a result. I lead alot on destro, can compete with the tools already at disposal... I shouldn't have to be the one pointing out why it is bad and short cited... If you are a pug and getting farmed by ROF spam at forts i can understand your concerns as BW is very strong at this. Thats why you need a 2/2/2 setup and healers that actually know how to heal and not afk / pretend.

Last time people want things nerfed ZDPS and RUNEDPS got guttered... one less option/choice for both sides... where ideally you want more choice (which i think is more healthy for the game) and even with these classes getting ruined our enemy still die, you just ruin some people fun for something they invested alot of time into. ZPDS doesnt even get counted as a champ in stage 3 when the only ranged... the less meme class the better.
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wonshot
Posts: 577

Re: Bright Wizards are way better than Sorcs in the main part of the game, large scale combat

Post#35 » Fri May 22, 2020 1:43 pm

If you look issolated on the career builder then sure BW is stronger than Sorc for aoeing. And yes Rain of Fire will deal more damage than a Pit of shade.
However,
The realms are balanced with synergy and two different playstyles.

Order as a whole has the theme of ranged knockdowns, raw damage and +healing.
Where as Destro have the snares, the incoming 25%healing debuff aura (vs 25% outgoing on knight) and more of a largescale utility and displacement advantage to break these Order-clumbs.

Rain of Fire being increased from 20feet to +50% is nice and handy.. Versus pugs.. Any organized 2-2-2 warband will mitigate your damage with a M4 routation and then you are playing with one less tactic on (want this arguement used further up in this topic about sorc and aoe punt on PoS?) But sure, the pugs will die in dozins if you have a guard+heals to mitigate Funnelpower when you hit 24 players with RoF.

The Ranged knockdown will consume your Ignite dot, which is your own source of resist debuff. Two GCD and consuming a tacticslot, or you not running with resist debuff.
Backdraft is personally my favorit build, not the best, but my favorit. it gives me a tool to escape if i get pulled by a choppa, magus, or mara. As I dont have a disarm to deal with getting caught.

Flashfire change/buff came out of nowhere, and deep down as much as I love it. I dont think BW needed it. But here it is, bugged animation*** and pretty danm strong! For a class that only really has damage to offer, getting more damage available is nice. Most guildie BWs and pug bws ive seen in city, dont get enough value out of their flashfire procs and it shows on their damage done. So either they run it but not optimally or they slot something more forgiving. The tactic gives me flexibility to assist with criticalmass and singletarget on low/priority targets and in general just boost how rewarding a "3 ability class is".

In the end of the day, endgame gear is here and bw/sorc are pushed further and further in the back for endgame content like 6v6 ranked and cityinstances, and melee + singletarget frontloaded burst+mobility is taking over. These casters are still good for pugstomping, and anyone who followed the Live citysiege meta kinda expected this shift to happen eventually on here.

So IF or WHEN instant aoe morales are nerfed/tuned down I think it might be the end of the BW era for good, and im kinda hoping it will happen soon as I am "burnt" out with morales :lol:

*** Flashfire patchnote stated that the animation would get fixxed later on, it is still not fixxed. And if we are following the logic on Why Engineer Electromagnet pull was reverted back to having a 1sec delay vs magus 0sec delay, simply to not **** up the engineer animation, then I really dont know what to think.
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Dackle
Posts: 106

Re: Bright Wizards are way better than Sorcs in the main part of the game, large scale combat

Post#36 » Fri May 22, 2020 4:04 pm

Foofmonger wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 7:58 pm
The only thing that's bothered me since 2008 is whoever thought giving the highest RDPS class in the game a heal debuff and ranged knockdown had brain damage. I hope losing their job and watching the game they worked on fail and die brought some self awareness to them.

I don't really care anymore, and the devs have done some good balance work on this server, but the initial design of the BW was some overpowered garbage. Let's give damage and CC and a heal debuff all to the same class! God I remember how bad Engie's were at launch. I firmly believed that the Engie should have always had the heal debuff and the ranged KD and not the BW, but like I said, I don't really care these days. Just always seemed odd to me that on Order, they put the utility on the damage focused RDPS. I always liked the way they balanced the Sorc, and I've always found the Sorc to be much more balanced and thematic to what the role "should be" (a damage caster who is focused on damage and has low amounts of CC and utility), rather than the BW who was more (you get everything in one class!).

Magus/Engie should have had the lions share of CC for RDPS. Shoulda kept ranged heal debuffs to SW/SH and a single ranged Healer (AM/Sham) (for ranged heal debuffs). Would have given much more reasons to play these classes and given them a firmer identity when this game launched, instead of just sticking all the tools into the BW because someone on the Mythic dev team has a pyromaniac fetish.
We must have played a different game as engineers were so OP in the beginning they nerfed them into the ground or it could be selective memory I suppose. Napalm stacking, the ticks were insane, weapon dps involved in the damage calculation for casters. Engineer could be the entire reasons that weapon dps was removed from the caster damage calculations. It was insane damage.
Last edited by Dackle on Fri May 22, 2020 4:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Starx
Posts: 242

Re: Bright Wizards are way better than Sorcs in the main part of the game, large scale combat

Post#37 » Fri May 22, 2020 4:16 pm

Dackle wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 4:04 pm
Foofmonger wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 7:58 pm
The only thing that's bothered me since 2008 is whoever thought giving the highest RDPS class in the game a heal debuff and ranged knockdown had brain damage. I hope losing their job and watching the game they worked on fail and die brought some self awareness to them.

I don't really care anymore, and the devs have done some good balance work on this server, but the initial design of the BW was some overpowered garbage. Let's give damage and CC and a heal debuff all to the same class! God I remember how bad Engie's were at launch. I firmly believed that the Engie should have always had the heal debuff and the ranged KD and not the BW, but like I said, I don't really care these days. Just always seemed odd to me that on Order, they put the utility on the damage focused RDPS. I always liked the way they balanced the Sorc, and I've always found the Sorc to be much more balanced and thematic to what the role "should be" (a damage caster who is focused on damage and has low amounts of CC and utility), rather than the BW who was more (you get everything in one class!).

Magus/Engie should have had the lions share of CC for RDPS. Shoulda kept ranged heal debuffs to SW/SH and a single ranged Healer (AM/Sham) (for ranged heal debuffs). Would have given much more reasons to play these classes and given them a firmer identity when this game launched, instead of just sticking all the tools into the BW because someone on the Mythic dev team has a pyromaniac fetish.
We must have played a different game as engineers were so OP in the beginning they nerfed them into the ground or it could be selective memory I suppose.
They relied on CC, yes they were incredibly powerful before cc immunities but as soon as that patch came they were gutter tier.

pretty sure pull was nerfed before the cc patch hit tho.

The genious mega minds behind post launch mythics balance team didnt think giving out 30 sec immunities would negatively impact some classes more than others.

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Dackle
Posts: 106

Re: Bright Wizards are way better than Sorcs in the main part of the game, large scale combat

Post#38 » Fri May 22, 2020 4:20 pm

Starx wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 4:16 pm
Dackle wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 4:04 pm
Foofmonger wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 7:58 pm
The only thing that's bothered me since 2008 is whoever thought giving the highest RDPS class in the game a heal debuff and ranged knockdown had brain damage. I hope losing their job and watching the game they worked on fail and die brought some self awareness to them.

I don't really care anymore, and the devs have done some good balance work on this server, but the initial design of the BW was some overpowered garbage. Let's give damage and CC and a heal debuff all to the same class! God I remember how bad Engie's were at launch. I firmly believed that the Engie should have always had the heal debuff and the ranged KD and not the BW, but like I said, I don't really care these days. Just always seemed odd to me that on Order, they put the utility on the damage focused RDPS. I always liked the way they balanced the Sorc, and I've always found the Sorc to be much more balanced and thematic to what the role "should be" (a damage caster who is focused on damage and has low amounts of CC and utility), rather than the BW who was more (you get everything in one class!).

Magus/Engie should have had the lions share of CC for RDPS. Shoulda kept ranged heal debuffs to SW/SH and a single ranged Healer (AM/Sham) (for ranged heal debuffs). Would have given much more reasons to play these classes and given them a firmer identity when this game launched, instead of just sticking all the tools into the BW because someone on the Mythic dev team has a pyromaniac fetish.
We must have played a different game as engineers were so OP in the beginning they nerfed them into the ground or it could be selective memory I suppose.
They relied on CC, yes they were incredibly powerful before cc immunities but as soon as that patch came they were gutter tier.

pretty sure pull was nerfed before the cc patch hit tho.

The genious mega minds behind post launch mythics balance team didnt think giving out 30 sec immunities would negatively impact some classes more than others.
Napalm stacked. The grenade dots scaled with weapon dps and ballistics... there were so many changes.

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Foofmonger
Posts: 171

Re: Bright Wizards are way better than Sorcs in the main part of the game, large scale combat

Post#39 » Fri May 22, 2020 7:26 pm

Dackle wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 4:20 pm
Starx wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 4:16 pm
Dackle wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 4:04 pm


We must have played a different game as engineers were so OP in the beginning they nerfed them into the ground or it could be selective memory I suppose.
They relied on CC, yes they were incredibly powerful before cc immunities but as soon as that patch came they were gutter tier.

pretty sure pull was nerfed before the cc patch hit tho.

The genious mega minds behind post launch mythics balance team didnt think giving out 30 sec immunities would negatively impact some classes more than others.
Napalm stacked. The grenade dots scaled with weapon dps and ballistics... there were so many changes.
Yea I'm probably remembering post the CC nerf patch, also ROF and other stacking from BWs was way worse than Engies at this time so my memory might also be clouded by the sheer amount of AoE nonsense that was going on back then.

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Vayra
Posts: 523

Re: Bright Wizards are way better than Sorcs in the main part of the game, large scale combat

Post#40 » Fri May 22, 2020 7:56 pm

Foofmonger wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 7:26 pm
Dackle wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 4:20 pm
Starx wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 4:16 pm


They relied on CC, yes they were incredibly powerful before cc immunities but as soon as that patch came they were gutter tier.

pretty sure pull was nerfed before the cc patch hit tho.

The genious mega minds behind post launch mythics balance team didnt think giving out 30 sec immunities would negatively impact some classes more than others.
Napalm stacked. The grenade dots scaled with weapon dps and ballistics... there were so many changes.
Yea I'm probably remembering post the CC nerf patch, also ROF and other stacking from BWs was way worse than Engies at this time so my memory might also be clouded by the sheer amount of AoE nonsense that was going on back then.
Launch AoE was absolutely stupid on live. Me with 1 healer wiped a full warband on the walls of the Shadowlands keep by spamming Shattered Shadows from behind them. . . It helped that they didn't have group heals, but still.
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