MSH needs some attention

[sogeou]

You have to spec full into melee tree otherwise your abilities won't scale and will hit like wet noodles, you can preload the bad gas sure but you better be super close to your enemy otherwise it won't hit anything, everything else you say after that is not worth replying to, sorry.

You must be bad. What melee SH is not full tree? The whole tree is good, I have ZERO of the SH issues you are crying about. Any class which has a build timer runs into those issues of being setback or interrupted. I played the mSH from when it was first made and everyone thought it was meh, now everyone wants to play it because it is very strong. It is fine, L2P.

Well i never said i don't spec into full tree, my comment was in response to you implying that the class has something good going for it because it has access to an aoe ability without having to spec into, which suggested you were ignorant of relative effectiveness of abilities scaling based on how many points you spend into the tree. Yeah i get it, you did it all before it was cool, very impressive, anyway i still think your just trying to turn this into argumentative thread, glad its going well for you.

No, you are wrong on just about everything. Going mid spec vs full spec at max might add 100 more damage at max. So, I was NOT ignorant as I know the effectiveness of the move because I was using it / helping Torq tweak the class. My statement is still true, you get good aoe for nothing as melee. Where as other classes, example SW has average poor aoe for melee. Which it should as melee AoE should not be strong, but average.

On your first post you are making complaints which all classes suffer from, example running over any level change will interrupt ALL channels. Same with classes with build timers and setbacks / interrupts. Everything is fine with the class. If anything the mSH should get the WL pet tactic to increase speed, but then the would gimp their damage like all WL's are forced to do by using a pet tactic so it is not worthless.

[xanderous]

I'm referring to the high damage channeled AOE abilities. Big Bouncing, Wrecking Ball, Whirling Axe, Retribution, whatever the choppa one is. The squig gets its high damage channel (Big Bouncing) on an 8s cooldown which is lower than all of the other classes, and with a cooldown reducer the ability is spammable which also is not possible on the other classes. Yes they get their standard spammable AOE ability but the damage isn't as high as the channeled ability.

24/7 Big Bouncing max damage in the right setup.

As an example Marra has 8 abilities to rotate so interrupting wreckin ball with its 13s cooldown is pretty negligible when it has other abilities to fall back on, where as big bouncin is one of three abilities that MSH can rotate, if its interrupted its pretty much out of the game untill its off cooldown, yes you can add that lots of choppin and waaagh will solve that but those cannot be up 100% of the time nor should it and if we are gonna make class comparisons on an individual basis then i think its fair not always bring up other class synergies in perfect set ups in perfect moments when the stars align. all those other abilities you listed fall into that same conclusion and i don't believe its unreasonable for class to have these issues looked at.

[Omegus]

I'm referring to the high damage channeled AOE abilities. Big Bouncing, Wrecking Ball, Whirling Axe, Retribution, whatever the choppa one is. The squig gets its high damage channel (Big Bouncing) on an 8s cooldown which is lower than all of the other classes, and with a cooldown reducer the ability is spammable which also is not possible on the other classes. Yes they get their standard spammable AOE ability but the damage isn't as high as the channeled ability.

24/7 Big Bouncing max damage in the right setup.

As an example Marra has 8 abilities to rotate so interrupting wreckin ball with its 13s cooldown is pretty negligible when it has other abilities to fall back on, where as big bouncin is one of three abilities that MSH can rotate, if its interrupted its pretty much out of the game untill its off cooldown, yes you can add that lots of choppin and waaagh will solve that but those cannot be up 100% of the time nor should it and if we are gonna make class comparisons on an individual basis then i think its fair not always bring up other class synergies in perfect set ups in perfect moments when the stars align. all those other abilities you listed fall into that same conclusion and i don't believe its unreasonable for class to have these issues looked at.

The point is that the baseline SH is not designed to be a full on AOE class at all times and primarily it is a single target class with some useful extra AOE abilities. You have the ability to turn it into a full AOE class but it required CD reducers (Waagh chained to Chop Faster then back to Waagh gives you 40s of cooldown, and if you time them right there's like a 5 second gap before you get more CD reduction). The trade-off of it being mostly single target is that with the right build you can just spam its most powerful AOE ability.

You keep asking for baseline spammable AOE on a class/build that is not designed to have baseline spammable AOE.

[Foofmonger]

I understand that rSH needs some good loving, but now people are saying to also make mSH better? Like what? Boost to what, stratosphere? It's already one of the best builds destro has and one of the most popular ones.

Ever played one? It’s not like a WL that has every tool/role viability...

Do you think aSW needed buffs like crosscut, etc.?

The mSH suffers from snare/roots, crappy AA damage, armor debuffs destroy its resiliency, few abilities and build synergy. The effect you see is a mobile AoE class, which is outclassed by Slayers w/ ID, spin2win WLs, BWs. The mSH is basic and effective, but can use some attention.

Illuminati is correct.

To be honest, there is a huge amount of hyperbole when it comes to balance on ROR and people's opinions on class balance. People see "MSH is a good class", and that all of the sudden becomes "MSH is an amazing and perfect class", no, it's good but that's just hyperbole. It works in the other direction as well, such as people acting like RSWs were unplayable garbage, which they of course weren't.

Often, the truth is actually in-between the extremes. Often, classes and/or specs that are commonly classified as "OP", are actually not, and other classes that are decreed to be "useless" are also actually not, there is just too much polarization to the extremes here.

There is as far as I know, no current class/builds that are game-breakingly OP nor are there any that are completely worthless. There is however, plenty of nuance to be had. To go off Illuminati's point here, the MSH class has a lot going for it, but it also has some issues that we shouldn't just gloss over because its an ok class/build. Same goes for a lot of the other classes in the game. Also, just because a class has a single viable build doesn't necessarily make the class "balanced" or that "it should get no changes ever". For instance, just because healing DOKs/WPs are great classes doesn't mean that their shield and dps specs should just be completely ignored (and they aren't/haven't been), and this goes for all the classes in the game. Just because Marauder AoE specs are good doesn't make their single target specs good. Just because Choppas DW spec is ok doesn't make their 2h specs good, and so on and so forth for both sides.

There is just too much hyperbole and generalization and not enough accuracy or nuance in most forum based balance discussions. To the point wargrimnir made, most of the feedback provided by the players on balance topics has to effectively be thrown out and sifted through because they are just a lazy and weak analysis.

[xanderous]

You keep asking for baseline spammable AOE on a class/build that is not designed to have baseline spammable AOE.

A lot of the classes on the server have been reworked, nothing is performing as originally designed, regardless of that from my own experience playing in quite a few guild raids and city instances, MSH is not the top tier damage you seem to give it credit for, far outshined by other classes at present, this is because they are limited when it comes to their rotation, 3 abilities all with too high cooldowns, i'm sorry but the burst they do does not reflect these handicaps at all even with sentinel/sov/bloodlord and blood lord weapon.

[Omegus]

You keep asking for baseline spammable AOE on a class/build that is not designed to have baseline spammable AOE.

A lot of the classes on the server have been reworked, nothing is performing as originally designed, regardless of that from my own experience playing in quite a few guild raids and city instances, MSH is not the top tier damage you seem to give it credit for, far outshined by other classes at present, this is because they are limited when it comes to their rotation, 3 abilities all with too high cooldowns, i'm sorry but the burst they do does not reflect these handicaps at all even with sentinel/sov/bloodlord and blood lord weapon.

Yes but I would assume any further changes would likely result in the MSH getting better single target burst and losing AOE...

[Illuminati]

You keep asking for baseline spammable AOE on a class/build that is not designed to have baseline spammable AOE.

A lot of the classes on the server have been reworked, nothing is performing as originally designed, regardless of that from my own experience playing in quite a few guild raids and city instances, MSH is not the top tier damage you seem to give it credit for, far outshined by other classes at present, this is because they are limited when it comes to their rotation, 3 abilities all with too high cooldowns, i'm sorry but the burst they do does not reflect these handicaps at all even with sentinel/sov/bloodlord and blood lord weapon.

Yes but I would assume any further changes would likely result in the MSH getting better single target burst and losing AOE...

Destro needs more ST burst classes to be honest, while maintaining their AOE balance, which is somewhat equal atm across realms. I would personally improve WE/WH (prob not a ton needed here, more QOL stuff, i.e. Witch Brew critting), improve Mara ST burst, pull, and some Choppa utility (adding damage dot to Chop Fasta, improve Bleed Em Out) to make it on par with Slayer DPS with ID and go from there. Id fix both Slayer/Choppa 2H trees and adjust the mechanic to be slightly less punishing.

I wouldn't mess with mSH AoE or give it more ST. My reasonable list is within this thread and wont swing the balance pendulum.

Anyway, these are all moot. There is only enough people bandwidth to do one class over time...

[Foofmonger]

A lot of the classes on the server have been reworked, nothing is performing as originally designed, regardless of that from my own experience playing in quite a few guild raids and city instances, MSH is not the top tier damage you seem to give it credit for, far outshined by other classes at present, this is because they are limited when it comes to their rotation, 3 abilities all with too high cooldowns, i'm sorry but the burst they do does not reflect these handicaps at all even with sentinel/sov/bloodlord and blood lord weapon.

Yes but I would assume any further changes would likely result in the MSH getting better single target burst and losing AOE...

Destro needs more ST burst classes to be honest, while maintaining their AOE balance, which is somewhat equal atm across realms. I would personally improve WE/WH (prob not a ton needed here, more QOL stuff, i.e. Witch Brew critting), improve Mara ST burst, pull, and some Choppa utility (adding damage dot to Chop Fasta, improve Bleed Em Out) to make it on par with Slayer DPS with ID and go from there. Id fix both Slayer/Choppa 2H trees and adjust the mechanic to be slightly less punishing.

I wouldn't mess with mSH AoE or give it more ST. My reasonable list is within this thread and wont swing the balance pendulum.

Anyway, these are all moot. There is only enough people bandwidth to do one class over time...

Out of curiosity, do you have a rough kind of metric for how you quantify good vs bad ST burst? I'm one of the few people who thinks Mara's burst isn't poor, so I'm curious to see what people think is current burst (X damage) over a period of time (Y timestamp) to actually see how the Mara burst compares. I'm happy to provide Mara numbers/screenshots for certain time periods (1.5, 3, 4.5, 6 seconds, whatever). I can do far more than Secrets did to this shaman though.

[Gurf]

So Destro who on average win 10/12 Cities with melee focus groups and warbands need a buff to one of their strongest melee classes SH as well as buffs to their other main melee Mara and Choppa, combined with a nerf to White Lion to balance the factions out. Sounds reasonable ........

[agemennon675]

So Destro who on average win 10/12 Cities with melee focus groups and warbands need a buff to one of their strongest melee classes SH as well as buffs to their other main melee Mara and Choppa, combined with a nerf to White Lion to balance the factions out. Sounds reasonable ........

Yes because destro is only winning by pure player skill not class imbalance simply because they are better players all of them