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City Winner History?

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Foofmonger
Posts: 520

Re: City Winner History?

Post#421 » Tue Jul 28, 2020 9:31 pm

wonshot wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 4:55 pm

About a week ago, we tried queuing with 12 lbl. We had one aoe bw, one dps wp and one full singletarget wl. And just went with it. The order pugfill got linked a discord link and not a single one wanted to join. Ended up loosing the instance with 6 order damagedealers vs destro's 6. Yet they had a pnp 12stack and WoM 6stack and that decited the instance as the AM got bored in stage3 and just kept running in solo. :roll:
I mean that's just the breaks with randomly queueing without a 24. I've queued as a duo and had to fight you in your full 24 before with thundercats, and I doubt the destro I was with got more then 10 kills in the entire instance. If it makes you feel any better, many of the strats we've attempted to develop over time are directly to counter whatever LBL/you/fenryl/spell are doing. It's just that they "sometimes" work against you guys, but they "always" work against people who aren't as organized as you.

Also, so I can let you guys know I suppose, the reason we've gone with a heavy Mara set up is "NOT" because of the tankiness (that's a bonus side effect and not the main point). It's because we decided to stack AoE interrupts to interrupt both your damage (channeled bombing), rezzing, and overall healing potential as a general "this works" strategy.

The main problem Order has with countering this strat, is that "their" 1-1 mirror counter (meaning aoe rupt stacking), the WL, can't deal all that well with Mara Monstro proc. That's why one of the strats Order has relied on to deal with relies on the use of 2-3 very good/geared BWs who can deal with the Maras (/wave spell). We've started to strategize on spells currently strategy a little bit and thats why in our last fight, I was ST Mara and I stuck on you like glue (we still lost that city too, I didn't do well enough apparently).

The real counter to the stacking Mara strat is to just play on a different axis to be honest. We can talk about that on discord if you want, :-P. Not that the BW strat doesn't work just fine, it does.

The GTDC Choppa stacking strat is vastly different and has different counters. FMJ tends to run that one in their dedicated WBs while the rest of the alliance WBs tend to be more Mara heavy, but sometimes we go with the Choppa stacks. I'm biased to the Mara groups since I main a Mara, so I'm usually in those. Occasionally I'm the 1-2 mara in the choppa heavy groups though.

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agemennon675
Posts: 170

Re: City Winner History?

Post#422 » Tue Jul 28, 2020 9:56 pm

ActAppalled wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 9:11 pm
I don't think it is purely an organisational issue for Order, it would really help if we had data of city team compositions and their respective win rates as that would easily confirm or deny that theory.

Personally I have only ever qued in 8/8/8 full WB groups as part of my Order guild alliance and my win rate is under 50% (If we take a WH/SW/Engi/AM or IB it is only one). I have two Order classes that have 5/8 Sov and 3/8 Sov respectively, so have done my fair share of city.
I'm usually either top or near the top of the meters in my respective classes and don't believe it's specifically me being the cause of the losses (but I do have bad days just like everyone else).
The minimum for said alliance WBs is Vanq but I would say about 50% of the players we get on a given day are usually better geared (quite a number in full Sov too). Yet we still lose, a lot, we never lose to unorganised Destro but a big majority of the WB's we verse have at least some numbers of PnP, FMJ, LOB, TUP, Capulet etc.. and usually it's enough.
It's not a static group due to the nature and timing of cities so it's not like we constantly field the same people either, I think it's quite a reach in logic to assume our whole big Alliance is just full of bad players. Personally I started on Destro and have a Magus that got to 3-4 Sov pieces (can't remember exactly) and had a higher win rate just from joining literally any /5 group advertising looking for DPS that would take me (as on Destro you can't be too picky as a Magus and you had to be sure you qued the second City instances opened).
One of the best BWs on the server in BiS gear (that has been in top guilds during cities) also claims to have a win percent under 50%.

This all leads me to believe there is definitely at least some class balance issues in city between the two factions. Simplfied, it is the better CC/AOE Cleave/Interrupts/Tankiness of the Destro melee train coupled with better damage and utility on Destro tanks (BG having better/actual AOE and a spammable healing debuff compared to IB, BO having a better CD decreaser and better utility than SM and Chosen having better offence at no cost to their defence over KOTBS, just to name a few) plus having more viable options in mSH over aSW and Shaman being a better healer/kiter than AM, it all adds up and compounds.
I don't see the supposed healing advantage Order has as the healing numbers on any City screenshot I look at indicate no significant difference (in fact it feels like DoKs somehow heal more than WP a lot of the time but that could be due to many factors).
For the record there is also a class distribution issue and telling Order to just organise better won't solve anything, as you can only spread the limited tank players that order has access to, so far.
Destro is guilty of bad organsiation and bad groups too, it's just less punishing on that side unless you get extremes like this screenshot (but I'm adding it to illustrate a point):
https://imgur.com/NmzMUOB
This comment pretty much explains almost everything if you are looking for a reason behind these “City Winner History” Thank you

Omegus
Posts: 477

Re: City Winner History?

Post#423 » Tue Jul 28, 2020 11:33 pm

ActAppalled wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 9:11 pm
For the record there is also a class distribution issue and telling Order to just organise better won't solve anything, as you can only spread the limited tank players that order has access to, so far.
Destro is guilty of bad organsiation and bad groups too, it's just less punishing on that side unless you get extremes like this screenshot (but I'm adding it to illustrate a point):
https://imgur.com/NmzMUOB
I'll put money on those 12 Witch Elves queueing together for a laugh. Assuming the one missing destro is a tank then it looks like their were paired with another 12-man, except that one was 222.
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Spellbound
Posts: 74

Re: City Winner History?

Post#424 » Wed Jul 29, 2020 12:25 am

Fine with the argument 30% Destro don’t get in so they have to organize. Why do more people play Destro or flock over to Destro after getting frustrated on Order?

About 1/3 of our guild mates are playing Destro most of the time now and wind up staying there.

Goes back to classes working together better and more fun on some of them. Their looks are a factor too but we have more skilled players that stay there because they’re smart and know where the stronger classes are.

Balance to get more players on Order so they have to organize to get into cities.

So many simple statements as saying organize or Destro has to organize but those posters not mentioning why that’s happening to their side only and more Order players have laid out the reasons.
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Omegus
Posts: 477

Re: City Winner History?

Post#425 » Wed Jul 29, 2020 12:36 am

Spellbound wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 12:25 am
So many simple statements as saying organize or Destro has to organize but those posters not mentioning why that’s happening to their side only and more Order players have laid out the reasons.
This has been happening since day 1 of cities when nobody knew what was good or not, what classes were viable, etc, after months (years?) of order having the advantage in ORVR siges by virtue of having more popular RDPS classes which can participate in all aspects of the siege rather than standing around semi-AFK and being used as a launch point for AOEs. Do some fort sieges while playing destro when LxL and co are defending for a different look at the game balance.

Remember: on the one hand, you have a bunch of order players complaining about unviable classes. On the other hand you have a top order guild making the DPS Rune Priest (widely considered the worst DPS career in the game) viable in cities. The difference between the two groups is very clear.
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wargrimnir
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Re: City Winner History?

Post#426 » Wed Jul 29, 2020 1:29 am

Meliannia wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 6:07 pm
this is not fun anymore.
I have some suggestions below, as i think anyone who complains needs to have some suggestions or solutions to at least show they've considered the issue and how to improve the problems if possible, and are not just venting a rant which gms ignore.,
i started the game with 6 friends we all made Order, after 6 months there is only me still here, 5 of my friends quit to Destro and are loving it, one quit the game totally as he believed the game will die again within 9monsth due to Order quitting or Order joining destro and he didnt wish to waste anymore time on it, ALL OF US enjoyed the game, the characters, the lore, the zones, the pvp, the mechanics, the ToK, the emotes, the npc voices, the gear, everything, no complaints, the only issue is Order get brutally stomped into the dust, for a two faction game one side up to 90% wins isn't very appealing, when it was destro 64% was irritating but playable, 90% no, issues below and suggestions:

1. Destro is approx 25% tank, 25% heal, 25% meleedps, 25% ranged dps,
Order is 5% tanks, 10% heal, 20% melee dps 65% ranged dps
we need more tanks (and heals) but we have an army of nekkid engis and shads, called Ninebulletzpewpew or Leegoolazpewpew
i suggest gms doing 1 of two things A or B
A), putting a (temporary) account creation block on shad, bw and engi, they cannot be played sorry until the tanks and healers get up to 20%
OR
B) ppl can roll a shad and engi or bw sure but its level locked u cant level it more than 10 levs unless u ALSO roll a tank and level that 10 levs too, so the tank progress is tied to the main toon.
Gms cud also put info warning on class creation screen ** Warning order need tanks and healers if u make a ranged dps u may struggle to be competitive, u may struggle to get grps at end game, u may struggle to win, plz (also) make a tank or healer and help Order win.**
Anyone remember years back Blizz had some wow servers that got to 90% alliance or 90% horde and wrecked the server or alliance were over 50% Nelf hunters called Leegoolazz and no tanks or heals, and alliance couldnt raid or win in pvp, and blizz blocked it all and made new ppl roll what was needed, this worked and saved the servers.

2. destro have so much cc, especially ridiculous insta kill cc, like those pulls, what do order have? white lion fetch that works 1 in 10 tries ,, some people want to get rid of the pulls i dont... BUT i suggest DISABLING all pulls in FORT and CITY only, rest of game fine as paint have your pulls. im seeing SO MANY Order being pulled through walls and doors in Forts, not standing in doorway just PULLED THRU the scenery, this decides many forts outcomes before the push in even starts, 1 feckign pull> all.
this is in city also i was in city today and we were in the SAFE STARTER AREA which is shielded by an impassable energy wall, and destro were PULLING us thru the walls and through the impassable shield, we even tried cramming into far corner and against the wall and up the stairs to the red exit, out of range but still they pulled 27 (TWENTY SEVEN)of us thru the walls to instant death. people started quitting.
maybe even give each order toon a 'parry pull' ability cd 1 per 5misn only and u must click within 2 sec of pull to remain stoic at your original point of origin?

3. i dont know if the devs can change this but the models themselves, the Order tank models need to be more attractive to new players, the destro tank models look class and suped up, the order tanks look thin and uninspiring, the Dorf Ib shud be RamMan from heMan, the KOTBS shud be Thrud or Conan, the nelf Sm shud be Fingolfin but they all just look like Jeremey Corbyn or Joe Biden.

4. Order seem to have a lot of classes that are in Great needs of love and improvement WH, AM, IB, SH . i understand a buff to SH improves 6500 order players calle Leegoolaz and that effects the entire game but there are only only 23 (TWENTY THREE) players who are playing poor old witch hunter so buffing WH WOULD NOT EFFECT THE OVERALL GAME coz no1 plays it, just insane resillient die-hard nutters. Also gms cud make AM 2 choices pro DPS only, or pro heal only for pvp only no more meh dps or meh heal, pve u can keep the middle jack of all trades as its fun, ok, .

5. admittedly there are things order are responsible for like 75% of pug players refusing utterly to attack healers at the back and will spend 37 scens straight beating on tanks and die 37 times and lose 37 times and keep doing the exact same thing over and over. I believe our best order are equal to the best destro but the 2nd rung of destro seems to be very large, whereas order tails off pretty quick in quality due to the issues above, also the synergy between the destro classes is superior, its like destro were born to play together and order are just 12 strange cats thrown into the same room together. We have maybe 2 or 3 ppl who lead organised wbs, and we have another 6 or 7 who try to organise the wbs pugs or the overlfow, but we have MANY who complain, abuse or criticise who then REFUSE utterly to lead a wb themselves they just armchair quarterback, in my book anyone who leads any Order wb needs to be encouraged or helped , ive led a few order pug wbs , tried to arrange grps, be communicative and positive and liaise with Beastz or Graffer and it gives me a headache irl. its not fun but u get rewarded by making good decision and leading your men to a few victories, killing an afk choppa 20 to 1, and making some good new friends along the way, u also learn about all the maps and classes in the game and stuff you didnt know from others.

sorry this went on for longer than i wanted, i wanted to keep it short so ppl would read it and not just skip it coz its too long, so that was epic fail but i care about this game and i feel we are approaching TERMINUS END GAME for it. Order need some help, the game balance needs some help, 64% loss i can handle and accept but 90%? no. And losing 22 times 500-475 all day long i can handle its competitive, but losing 22 times 500-0 is not fun. these things need looking at or in 3 months we will be seeing 90% scens and city destro wins accepted as the norm, and more order going destro or quitting daily and destro not being able to get into city and 500 destro raging around praarg, and in 6 months it will be irreversible and thats only when unfortunately i think ppl will see it, 6 months after the rest of us and it will be too late, Nine months this will all be a memory, Dont let that happen gms, plz think of our suggestions or contact players to form a PLAYER COUNCIL of ppl who have passion for the game and also ideas for solutions , not just moaning. Please Gms, take this seriously and help the community. Order do not want to pass into the night meek, eyes lowered accepting defeat, restore our fierce pride and will to fight on , on an even keel!


Swords In the Wind.

The Mel.
I was asked to respond to this.

You seem to be very passionate, but your communication skills are sorely lacking. There is an attempt to categorize your thoughts into different points, which is appreciated. The spelling and grammar is incredibly bad. There are several factors that appear to be wildly exaggerated, this is something that bothers me in suggestions and mostly invalidates any point you're trying to make on it. I assume with the best intent, that something similar to your exaggeration was experienced at some time, which is hardly a data point that can be extrapolated on in good faith, but you did and then some. To honestly address some of your points.

1. Limiting the classes you're allowed to play based on ingame population or adding a requirement of "must have X classes to progress" is a massive violation of player choice.

2. CC is a significant tool for several classes. Removing it due to the city isn't going to happen. I have never supported pulling through barriers, but I'm unable to make that change. It has been brought up in the past.

3. We cannot change the models, we're not artists and we don't have the tools or volunteers capable of doing so.

4. Balance is ongoing. The Shadow Warrior changes were started in May, it's the end of July and we still have at least one round of changes. This is for a single class. These things take time, and even when we take our time to consider a wide variety of options, it still manages to disappoint. All the classes you mentioned will receive a balance pass at some point in time.

5. This isn't really a question.

Side note, GM's are Game Masters. These are the people that enforce the rules on the server. GM's are not Developers. They do not make any changes to the game and are not involved in balance. I am involved in a great many things as a Lead, some things are more management related, some things are development related.

There are some things that can be done to put the finger on the scales of balance from a development perspective, but if the playerbase does not course correct on their apparent willingness to overpopulate a faction, then that may be the ultimate fate of the server. Clearly that isn't our goal or desire from the development side of things.

Please don't ever ask me to read one of your posts again.
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Manatikik
Posts: 1174

Re: City Winner History?

Post#427 » Wed Jul 29, 2020 3:00 am

Spoiler:
wargrimnir wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 1:29 am
Meliannia wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 6:07 pm
this is not fun anymore.
I have some suggestions below, as i think anyone who complains needs to have some suggestions or solutions to at least show they've considered the issue and how to improve the problems if possible, and are not just venting a rant which gms ignore.,
i started the game with 6 friends we all made Order, after 6 months there is only me still here, 5 of my friends quit to Destro and are loving it, one quit the game totally as he believed the game will die again within 9monsth due to Order quitting or Order joining destro and he didnt wish to waste anymore time on it, ALL OF US enjoyed the game, the characters, the lore, the zones, the pvp, the mechanics, the ToK, the emotes, the npc voices, the gear, everything, no complaints, the only issue is Order get brutally stomped into the dust, for a two faction game one side up to 90% wins isn't very appealing, when it was destro 64% was irritating but playable, 90% no, issues below and suggestions:

1. Destro is approx 25% tank, 25% heal, 25% meleedps, 25% ranged dps,
Order is 5% tanks, 10% heal, 20% melee dps 65% ranged dps
we need more tanks (and heals) but we have an army of nekkid engis and shads, called Ninebulletzpewpew or Leegoolazpewpew
i suggest gms doing 1 of two things A or B
A), putting a (temporary) account creation block on shad, bw and engi, they cannot be played sorry until the tanks and healers get up to 20%
OR
B) ppl can roll a shad and engi or bw sure but its level locked u cant level it more than 10 levs unless u ALSO roll a tank and level that 10 levs too, so the tank progress is tied to the main toon.
Gms cud also put info warning on class creation screen ** Warning order need tanks and healers if u make a ranged dps u may struggle to be competitive, u may struggle to get grps at end game, u may struggle to win, plz (also) make a tank or healer and help Order win.**
Anyone remember years back Blizz had some wow servers that got to 90% alliance or 90% horde and wrecked the server or alliance were over 50% Nelf hunters called Leegoolazz and no tanks or heals, and alliance couldnt raid or win in pvp, and blizz blocked it all and made new ppl roll what was needed, this worked and saved the servers.

2. destro have so much cc, especially ridiculous insta kill cc, like those pulls, what do order have? white lion fetch that works 1 in 10 tries ,, some people want to get rid of the pulls i dont... BUT i suggest DISABLING all pulls in FORT and CITY only, rest of game fine as paint have your pulls. im seeing SO MANY Order being pulled through walls and doors in Forts, not standing in doorway just PULLED THRU the scenery, this decides many forts outcomes before the push in even starts, 1 feckign pull> all.
this is in city also i was in city today and we were in the SAFE STARTER AREA which is shielded by an impassable energy wall, and destro were PULLING us thru the walls and through the impassable shield, we even tried cramming into far corner and against the wall and up the stairs to the red exit, out of range but still they pulled 27 (TWENTY SEVEN)of us thru the walls to instant death. people started quitting.
maybe even give each order toon a 'parry pull' ability cd 1 per 5misn only and u must click within 2 sec of pull to remain stoic at your original point of origin?

3. i dont know if the devs can change this but the models themselves, the Order tank models need to be more attractive to new players, the destro tank models look class and suped up, the order tanks look thin and uninspiring, the Dorf Ib shud be RamMan from heMan, the KOTBS shud be Thrud or Conan, the nelf Sm shud be Fingolfin but they all just look like Jeremey Corbyn or Joe Biden.

4. Order seem to have a lot of classes that are in Great needs of love and improvement WH, AM, IB, SH . i understand a buff to SH improves 6500 order players calle Leegoolaz and that effects the entire game but there are only only 23 (TWENTY THREE) players who are playing poor old witch hunter so buffing WH WOULD NOT EFFECT THE OVERALL GAME coz no1 plays it, just insane resillient die-hard nutters. Also gms cud make AM 2 choices pro DPS only, or pro heal only for pvp only no more meh dps or meh heal, pve u can keep the middle jack of all trades as its fun, ok, .

5. admittedly there are things order are responsible for like 75% of pug players refusing utterly to attack healers at the back and will spend 37 scens straight beating on tanks and die 37 times and lose 37 times and keep doing the exact same thing over and over. I believe our best order are equal to the best destro but the 2nd rung of destro seems to be very large, whereas order tails off pretty quick in quality due to the issues above, also the synergy between the destro classes is superior, its like destro were born to play together and order are just 12 strange cats thrown into the same room together. We have maybe 2 or 3 ppl who lead organised wbs, and we have another 6 or 7 who try to organise the wbs pugs or the overlfow, but we have MANY who complain, abuse or criticise who then REFUSE utterly to lead a wb themselves they just armchair quarterback, in my book anyone who leads any Order wb needs to be encouraged or helped , ive led a few order pug wbs , tried to arrange grps, be communicative and positive and liaise with Beastz or Graffer and it gives me a headache irl. its not fun but u get rewarded by making good decision and leading your men to a few victories, killing an afk choppa 20 to 1, and making some good new friends along the way, u also learn about all the maps and classes in the game and stuff you didnt know from others.

sorry this went on for longer than i wanted, i wanted to keep it short so ppl would read it and not just skip it coz its too long, so that was epic fail but i care about this game and i feel we are approaching TERMINUS END GAME for it. Order need some help, the game balance needs some help, 64% loss i can handle and accept but 90%? no. And losing 22 times 500-475 all day long i can handle its competitive, but losing 22 times 500-0 is not fun. these things need looking at or in 3 months we will be seeing 90% scens and city destro wins accepted as the norm, and more order going destro or quitting daily and destro not being able to get into city and 500 destro raging around praarg, and in 6 months it will be irreversible and thats only when unfortunately i think ppl will see it, 6 months after the rest of us and it will be too late, Nine months this will all be a memory, Dont let that happen gms, plz think of our suggestions or contact players to form a PLAYER COUNCIL of ppl who have passion for the game and also ideas for solutions , not just moaning. Please Gms, take this seriously and help the community. Order do not want to pass into the night meek, eyes lowered accepting defeat, restore our fierce pride and will to fight on , on an even keel!


Swords In the Wind.

The Mel.
I was asked to respond to this.

You seem to be very passionate, but your communication skills are sorely lacking. There is an attempt to categorize your thoughts into different points, which is appreciated. The spelling and grammar is incredibly bad. There are several factors that appear to be wildly exaggerated, this is something that bothers me in suggestions and mostly invalidates any point you're trying to make on it. I assume with the best intent, that something similar to your exaggeration was experienced at some time, which is hardly a data point that can be extrapolated on in good faith, but you did and then some. To honestly address some of your points.

1. Limiting the classes you're allowed to play based on ingame population or adding a requirement of "must have X classes to progress" is a massive violation of player choice.

2. CC is a significant tool for several classes. Removing it due to the city isn't going to happen. I have never supported pulling through barriers, but I'm unable to make that change. It has been brought up in the past.

3. We cannot change the models, we're not artists and we don't have the tools or volunteers capable of doing so.

4. Balance is ongoing. The Shadow Warrior changes were started in May, it's the end of July and we still have at least one round of changes. This is for a single class. These things take time, and even when we take our time to consider a wide variety of options, it still manages to disappoint. All the classes you mentioned will receive a balance pass at some point in time.

5. This isn't really a question.

Side note, GM's are Game Masters. These are the people that enforce the rules on the server. GM's are not Developers. They do not make any changes to the game and are not involved in balance. I am involved in a great many things as a Lead, some things are more management related, some things are development related.

There are some things that can be done to put the finger on the scales of balance from a development perspective, but if the playerbase does not course correct on their apparent willingness to overpopulate a faction, then that may be the ultimate fate of the server. Clearly that isn't our goal or desire from the development side of things.

Please don't ever ask me to read one of your posts again.

On the point of the pulling through barrier; have you guys considered the fire from final boss BS? It doesn't allow group healing or any attacks to pass it; no idea how that interacts compared to barriers but thaty could solve a lot of issues. No clue though.
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normanis
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Re: City Winner History?

Post#428 » Wed Jul 29, 2020 3:04 am

order tend to roll destro side when it comes to city sieges.
every order who rolled destro side, take spot from destro players.
maby we should also count how many ppl are without que fir city? would be intresting to see numbers

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Darks63
Posts: 548

Re: City Winner History?

Post#429 » Wed Jul 29, 2020 6:11 am

normanis wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 3:04 am
order tend to roll destro side when it comes to city sieges.
every order who rolled destro side, take spot from destro players.
maybe we should also count how many ppl are without que for city? would be interesting to see numbers
That would be alot harder since it would likely take someone on the ground doing a headcount. The only issue tho is people who are in a wb/group who arent there how would you count them? Not to mention the counter would have to miss the city.
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M0rw47h
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Re: City Winner History?

Post#430 » Wed Jul 29, 2020 6:53 am

wargrimnir wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 1:29 am

2. CC is a significant tool for several classes. Removing it due to the city isn't going to happen. I have never supported pulling through barriers, but I'm unable to make that change. It has been brought up in the past.
Have you guys ever considered calling pulling through barriers as exploiting and swinging mighty ban hammer?
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